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Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Was Mason's steal legal?
- mtnMan
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8 years 10 months ago #1378
by mtnMan
Lots of comments in the blogosphere that Mason's steal was not legal. Toe on line, arms definitely across the plane. But also comment that that was one of the few bad calls all night that went KU's way. NBC Sports called the foul at the end of 1st half "atrocious." Examples:
NBCSports You make the call
Photo here shows Mason foot on line, then he was first person to touch the ball back in bounds.
Bleacher report photo
NBCSports You make the call
Photo here shows Mason foot on line, then he was first person to touch the ball back in bounds.
Bleacher report photo
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- NotOstertag
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8 years 10 months ago #1381
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
Ok, sure, it was illegal. We still win by 1.
In reality, I'll only believe it was "illegal" if we go back through the game and look at every other inbounds play and see if the defender moved within 3 feet. I'm going to guess that in..conservatively...100% of defended inbounds plays, that the defender moves within the 3 foot limit.
Anyone with any impartiality whatsoever could clearly see that the Jayhawks got a bunch of bad calls against them all night. Another way to look at it: when was the last time you saw the 3' rule actually enforced and a team get called for encroaching it?
Non issue. If anybody wants to try to make it a legitimate argument, just show them Frank getting his head torn off (no call) so that they can get Lucas on the over-the-back.
In reality, I'll only believe it was "illegal" if we go back through the game and look at every other inbounds play and see if the defender moved within 3 feet. I'm going to guess that in..conservatively...100% of defended inbounds plays, that the defender moves within the 3 foot limit.
Anyone with any impartiality whatsoever could clearly see that the Jayhawks got a bunch of bad calls against them all night. Another way to look at it: when was the last time you saw the 3' rule actually enforced and a team get called for encroaching it?
Non issue. If anybody wants to try to make it a legitimate argument, just show them Frank getting his head torn off (no call) so that they can get Lucas on the over-the-back.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
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8 years 10 months ago #1382
by konza63
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Couldn't agree more, NotO.
National men's college basketball writer Mike DeCourcy was on 810 earlier this morning. Unprompted, he said this was the worst reffed game he's seen in ages. AGAINST KU, in particular.
He said the foul call on Frank that led to Coach's T was THE WORST call on a great defensive play he's seen. He then cited the no-call on the foul on Frank's layup at the end of regulation, etc.
It goes both ways, and then some last night (horribly one-sided officiating in the first half, all involving that one older ref).
Ultimately, posts like that are laughable, and you have to wonder if there is a Misery or Grape fan writing it! Haters gonna hate. Even the OU coach and players gave full props and respect to KU, but the detractors have to dredge up nonsense like that. The foul and FT disparity was clear to see. And when you factor in brutal no-calls and phantom calls against us, it's so ridiculous as to be laughable.
We won an epic classic, and nit-noid pieces like that unsuccessfully try to cheapen or diminish that fact.
National men's college basketball writer Mike DeCourcy was on 810 earlier this morning. Unprompted, he said this was the worst reffed game he's seen in ages. AGAINST KU, in particular.
He said the foul call on Frank that led to Coach's T was THE WORST call on a great defensive play he's seen. He then cited the no-call on the foul on Frank's layup at the end of regulation, etc.
It goes both ways, and then some last night (horribly one-sided officiating in the first half, all involving that one older ref).
Ultimately, posts like that are laughable, and you have to wonder if there is a Misery or Grape fan writing it! Haters gonna hate. Even the OU coach and players gave full props and respect to KU, but the detractors have to dredge up nonsense like that. The foul and FT disparity was clear to see. And when you factor in brutal no-calls and phantom calls against us, it's so ridiculous as to be laughable.
We won an epic classic, and nit-noid pieces like that unsuccessfully try to cheapen or diminish that fact.
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
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8 years 10 months ago #1386
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
That really says it all, if OU's guys were complimenting us. They'll get at least one more shot at us in Norman.
Bottom line, if you look a the way the players and coaches reacted to each other after the game, you could tell that to a person, everyone knew that they'd given 100% and knew that the other guys had as well. Kruger certainly didn't complain about the refs, and all Heild wanted was a bed.
Kind of refreshing to see this in sports. Two opponents leaving it all on the court, and walking off without any anger or regrets. KU was 0.0001% better last night and it took 3 OTs to determine it.
Bottom line, if you look a the way the players and coaches reacted to each other after the game, you could tell that to a person, everyone knew that they'd given 100% and knew that the other guys had as well. Kruger certainly didn't complain about the refs, and all Heild wanted was a bed.
Kind of refreshing to see this in sports. Two opponents leaving it all on the court, and walking off without any anger or regrets. KU was 0.0001% better last night and it took 3 OTs to determine it.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
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8 years 10 months ago #1387
by Senex68
"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”
Glenn Reynolds
As has been pointed out, the 3 foot rule is never enforced. 'Legal' is a strange term to use in sports anyway, since there are no 'illegal' elements. There are 'fouls' or 'rules violations,' which have specific remedies, but 'legality' is not an issue. As for the refs, they were not up to the standards set by the players and the coaches. And THAT is the issue. I have no idea who the 'older' ref is, but he not only was (and most certainly, IS) incompetent, and should never appear on a Division 1 floor again, except perhaps as part of the maintenance crew.
I re-watched the game this morning, and I was repeatedly surprised by how bad the refs really were. It's always easy to criticize refs, because the job is likely impossible to perform consistently well, but these guys were not just bad, they were so bad that at times I questioned their motives. For the Big 12 to permit jokers like those three to ever work another game is negligence, but I would not be surprised to see this crew again, probably many times this year. Who is the 'older' guy, anyway?
I re-watched the game this morning, and I was repeatedly surprised by how bad the refs really were. It's always easy to criticize refs, because the job is likely impossible to perform consistently well, but these guys were not just bad, they were so bad that at times I questioned their motives. For the Big 12 to permit jokers like those three to ever work another game is negligence, but I would not be surprised to see this crew again, probably many times this year. Who is the 'older' guy, anyway?
"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”
Glenn Reynolds
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8 years 10 months ago #1388
by HawkErrant
Good for Decourcy. He is not one of my favorites. Good to read him actually being even handed re: KU.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
konza63 wrote: Couldn't agree more, NotO.
National men's college basketball writer Mike DeCourcy was on 810 earlier this morning. Unprompted, he said this was the worst reffed game he's seen in ages. AGAINST KU, in particular.
He said the foul call on Frank that led to Coach's T was THE WORST call on a great defensive play he's seen. He then cited the no-call on the foul on Frank's layup at the end of regulation, etc.
Good for Decourcy. He is not one of my favorites. Good to read him actually being even handed re: KU.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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8 years 10 months ago #1393
by Kong
Visualize Whirled Peas
And I yelled that in the bar last night.
But the implication by asking this is that this is the reason we won the game and it some how taints what was a tremendous game.
There were so many bad calls in the game to focus on that one because it was the last bad call is disingenuous in my mind.
But the implication by asking this is that this is the reason we won the game and it some how taints what was a tremendous game.
There were so many bad calls in the game to focus on that one because it was the last bad call is disingenuous in my mind.
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8 years 10 months ago #1394
by mtnMan
Ironically, the name of the worst-ref-ever is Kelly Self. This article identifies him in a photo as he is teeing up Bill Self.
[url=Ironically, the name of the worst-ref-ever is Kelly Self. This article identifies him in a photo as he is teeing up Bill Self.]article with AP photo of ref Kelly Sel[/url]
And John Higgins was the ref who rushed in from half court to call the over-the-back on Lucas (is it over-the-back if you get both hands on the ball before any contact?) but couldn't see the mauling of Mason just before that. In his previous game, Higgins teed up Bobby Hurley twice and tossed him for complaining about solid defensive plays that were called fouls.
[url=Ironically, the name of the worst-ref-ever is Kelly Self. This article identifies him in a photo as he is teeing up Bill Self.]article with AP photo of ref Kelly Sel[/url]
And John Higgins was the ref who rushed in from half court to call the over-the-back on Lucas (is it over-the-back if you get both hands on the ball before any contact?) but couldn't see the mauling of Mason just before that. In his previous game, Higgins teed up Bobby Hurley twice and tossed him for complaining about solid defensive plays that were called fouls.
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8 years 10 months ago #1396
by Kong
Visualize Whirled Peas
He teed up Hurly and tossed him and horribly so, by all accounts. Yet he was the guy who stepped in after Self got his T and let Self rant at him without giving him another. I actually thought he did well in that instance. Was sort of shocked by it as I thought he was going to give him another T so that he could toss another coach.
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8 years 10 months ago #1398
by mtnMan
That was NOT my implication in asking the question. I'm a rules junkie and was just curious. Reading further stories I've learned that after the ref told Frank to step back to 3 feet that Frank took a step forward after the ref looked away, as he had been coached to do. It is interesting that there are no serious consequences for violating the rule or ref's instruction, at least the first time. Possible outcomes are: (a) ball is safely inbounded, (b) defense gets the steal, (c) defense gets the steal but ref gives the ball back to offense because player was too close. (c) isn't much of a penalty for a rules violation. The second time might get a T, but the first time appears to be free and seldom called anyway.
Kong wrote: And I yelled that in the bar last night.
But the implication by asking this is that this is the reason we won the game and it some how taints what was a tremendous game.
There were so many bad calls in the game to focus on that one because it was the last bad call is disingenuous in my mind.
That was NOT my implication in asking the question. I'm a rules junkie and was just curious. Reading further stories I've learned that after the ref told Frank to step back to 3 feet that Frank took a step forward after the ref looked away, as he had been coached to do. It is interesting that there are no serious consequences for violating the rule or ref's instruction, at least the first time. Possible outcomes are: (a) ball is safely inbounded, (b) defense gets the steal, (c) defense gets the steal but ref gives the ball back to offense because player was too close. (c) isn't much of a penalty for a rules violation. The second time might get a T, but the first time appears to be free and seldom called anyway.
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8 years 10 months ago #1399
by Kong
Visualize Whirled Peas
I wasn't saying that it was your intention, I meant to say that others are implying it.
As far as what the rules are, I believe if you touch it in the players hands out of bounds, it is a technical foul. I seem to recall a discussion on that one time when a Princeton player was inbounding the ball after a made shot and held the ball out for the defender to hit at. Really a smart play if the defender falls for it.
I think if you are out of bounds come back in and are the first person to touch it, it is a turnover that goes to the other team.
I don't know what the specifics on just being too close are other than I have seen an official move in mutliple times to keep a player back who was encroaching. But that is rare.
As far as what the rules are, I believe if you touch it in the players hands out of bounds, it is a technical foul. I seem to recall a discussion on that one time when a Princeton player was inbounding the ball after a made shot and held the ball out for the defender to hit at. Really a smart play if the defender falls for it.
I think if you are out of bounds come back in and are the first person to touch it, it is a turnover that goes to the other team.
I don't know what the specifics on just being too close are other than I have seen an official move in mutliple times to keep a player back who was encroaching. But that is rare.
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8 years 10 months ago #1400
by mtnMan
I think Higgins had the best look at Mason's strip and realized it was an atrocious call so maybe was more willing to let HCBS vent
Kong wrote: He teed up Hurly and tossed him and horribly so, by all accounts. Yet he was the guy who stepped in after Self got his T and let Self rant at him without giving him another. I actually thought he did well in that instance. Was sort of shocked by it as I thought he was going to give him another T so that he could toss another coach.
I think Higgins had the best look at Mason's strip and realized it was an atrocious call so maybe was more willing to let HCBS vent
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- NotOstertag
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8 years 10 months ago #1401
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
The only time I've ever seen it even remotely dealt with is when a ref has stopped play and re-established the 3 feet. Not sure that I can find an actual example, but I seem to remember (somewhere in the billions of basketball games I've watched) that a ref has blown a whistle, taken the ball back, had the defender move back, and then re-start the action.
I suppose the inbounding player could also complain about it, and maybe the ref would re-establish the spacing (kind of like guys jockeying for position before a free throw, inbounds play, or tip).
Maybe a rules guru can shed some light, but I don't think it's even a foul, but a violation. So even if it were "called" the ball goes back to being an out-of-bounds play from the same spot. I suppose, as you say, multiple violations COULD be seen as intentional and called a technical, but I've never seen it.
The only things that I've typically seen called are if a guy fouls the inbounding player, or gets a deflection but steps on the line and is out of bounds.
I suppose the inbounding player could also complain about it, and maybe the ref would re-establish the spacing (kind of like guys jockeying for position before a free throw, inbounds play, or tip).
Maybe a rules guru can shed some light, but I don't think it's even a foul, but a violation. So even if it were "called" the ball goes back to being an out-of-bounds play from the same spot. I suppose, as you say, multiple violations COULD be seen as intentional and called a technical, but I've never seen it.
The only things that I've typically seen called are if a guy fouls the inbounding player, or gets a deflection but steps on the line and is out of bounds.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
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8 years 10 months ago #1403
by konza63
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
The only time I've ever seen it even remotely dealt with is when a ref has stopped play and re-established the 3 feet. Not sure that I can find an actual example, but I seem to remember (somewhere in the billions of basketball games I've watched) that a ref has blown a whistle, taken the ball back, had the defender move back, and then re-start the action.
This is correct. When it IS enforced, the ref simply stops play, steps in, and tells the defender to give more space.
If folks can recall the Colorado game in Boulder that came down to the long made shot by CU (Wiggins was on that squad, so I guess it was 2 seasons ago?), that is exactly what happened there. The ref told the KU defender to back off. Problem was, he backed off way too much, CU got a good pass from the KU side of the court to the CU arc, and a Buffalo hit the big shot to win.
This is correct. When it IS enforced, the ref simply stops play, steps in, and tells the defender to give more space.
If folks can recall the Colorado game in Boulder that came down to the long made shot by CU (Wiggins was on that squad, so I guess it was 2 seasons ago?), that is exactly what happened there. The ref told the KU defender to back off. Problem was, he backed off way too much, CU got a good pass from the KU side of the court to the CU arc, and a Buffalo hit the big shot to win.
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
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8 years 10 months ago - 8 years 10 months ago #1414
by Sieverling
Hic manebimus optime
I had to read all these posts before I could reply. This was pointed out to me by a HS ref.
The ESPN guy (and bleacherreport story) are wrong. 3 feet is in the rulebook, but it's not how far the defender has to be from the line. 3 feet is the width of the box the inbounder has to set up in some cases.
Yes, Frank crossed the plane, and that is a violation. But 3 feet has nothing to do with it.
Here a clip from a rules summary
I guess there's the line about gyms with limited space. But I doubt the ref told Frank to move back.
Incidentally here's what Frank meant in the press conference about moving in and the ref not being able to do anything. He meant, IMO, that it would just have been a warning.
The ESPN guy (and bleacherreport story) are wrong. 3 feet is in the rulebook, but it's not how far the defender has to be from the line. 3 feet is the width of the box the inbounder has to set up in some cases.
Yes, Frank crossed the plane, and that is a violation. But 3 feet has nothing to do with it.
Here a clip from a rules summary
Inbounding the Ball, Throw-In
A player inbounding the ball may step on, but not over the 2-inch out-of-bounds line. During a designated spot throw-in, the player inbounding the ball must keep one foot on or over the three-foot wide designated spot. An inbounding player is allowed to jump or move one or both feet. A player inbounding the ball may move backward as far as space allows. If player moves outside the three-foot wide designated spot it is a throw-in violation, not traveling. In gymnasiums with limited space outside the sidelines and endlines, a defensive player may be asked to step back no more than three feet.
The defender may not break the imaginary plane during a throw-in. If the defender breaks the imaginary plane during a throw-in, the defender’s team will receive a warning. Any subsequent violation will result in a team technical foul. If the defender contacts the ball after breaking the imaginary plane, it is a player technical foul and a team warning will be recorded. If the defender fouls the inbounding player after breaking the imaginary plane, it is an intentional personal foul, and a team warning will be recorded.
The inbounding player does not have a plane restriction, as does the defender, but has five seconds to release the ball and it must come directly onto the court.
I guess there's the line about gyms with limited space. But I doubt the ref told Frank to move back.
Incidentally here's what Frank meant in the press conference about moving in and the ref not being able to do anything. He meant, IMO, that it would just have been a warning.
Hic manebimus optime
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8 years 10 months ago #1421
by KMT
that no call on Mason's drive was almost as bad as the call when he stole the ball from Hield...worst game I have ever seen from an officiating standpoint - i hope we something in the news regarding it..
pbs.twimg.com/media/CX7b15mWAAAXkkN.jpg:large
pbs.twimg.com/media/CX7b15mWAAAXkkN.jpg:large
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8 years 10 months ago #1423
by AZhawk87
I checked out OU's chat board, and found it ironic that they saw the same bad refs that we did, but were certain that most calls went in KU's favor. There will always be blown calls, and in a #1 vs #2, on national TV, at Allen Fieldhouse, they just get magnified. The focus should be on the game itself, and how the players from both teams played through all calls.
The only call that I can honestly say was poor judgment by the ref (as opposed to just missing a call, or saying any certain call swayed the game) was the double foul (or technical?) on Wayne and the OU player. That was where a good ref would have stepped in, talked to the guys, and told them to cut it out. Instead, he whistled, pointed at both, and called the double infraction immediately. I thought he showed no poise in handling what seemed to be a minor incident by two players in a really important game.
The only call that I can honestly say was poor judgment by the ref (as opposed to just missing a call, or saying any certain call swayed the game) was the double foul (or technical?) on Wayne and the OU player. That was where a good ref would have stepped in, talked to the guys, and told them to cut it out. Instead, he whistled, pointed at both, and called the double infraction immediately. I thought he showed no poise in handling what seemed to be a minor incident by two players in a really important game.
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8 years 10 months ago #1424
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Turns out I had set the recording time to capture everything but Hield's final attempt.
Based on the explanation provided by Dave, Frank is in the clear. He touched neither Hield nor the ball until it had left Hield's hands. Frank did indeed step out of bounds, but he reestablished himself before jumping up to deflect the ball and was well in bounds when he picked it up.
As to the OU fans, I just hope that the refs favor KU in Norman as much as they favored OU last night.
Based on the explanation provided by Dave, Frank is in the clear. He touched neither Hield nor the ball until it had left Hield's hands. Frank did indeed step out of bounds, but he reestablished himself before jumping up to deflect the ball and was well in bounds when he picked it up.
As to the OU fans, I just hope that the refs favor KU in Norman as much as they favored OU last night.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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8 years 10 months ago #1428
by Wheatstate Gal
HE--
Same with me.....I extended the record time (I think 60 minutes).....I "lost" our free throws and Hield's shot.
Who wudda thunk 3 OTs? I'm setting it for 120 minutes extra next time. Jeepers......
Same with me.....I extended the record time (I think 60 minutes).....I "lost" our free throws and Hield's shot.
Who wudda thunk 3 OTs? I'm setting it for 120 minutes extra next time. Jeepers......
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8 years 10 months ago #1434
by Hawknmo
RKCKJHK!!!
Better question...Was Lattin's foul on Frank punishable as an assault? The refs giveth and they taketh away. Have a 10 point lead and no one cares about an in bounds pass. And yes, Im talking to both teams. One play didn't decide this game either.
RKCKJHK!!!
RKCKJHK!!!
RKCKJHK!!!
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