President gives information to Russia
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7 years 6 months ago #13683
by Kong
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www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-de...y7?OCID=ansmsnnews11
As I said, I pose a new thread not asking if the President has the right. Not attacking him. But discussing whether or not a President, any President, who has information that might stop a terrorist attack should share that information with a foreign government (either friendly or hostile) in order to save lives when it might compromise future operations. I assume that this will turn into a typical discussion here, but have a hope that perhaps the nuances can be discussed without it turning into a yelling match.
What do you think the factors are in such a decision? How should it be done if you think it should be done?
Moral obligations
Political Agenda
Security Issues
As I said, I pose a new thread not asking if the President has the right. Not attacking him. But discussing whether or not a President, any President, who has information that might stop a terrorist attack should share that information with a foreign government (either friendly or hostile) in order to save lives when it might compromise future operations. I assume that this will turn into a typical discussion here, but have a hope that perhaps the nuances can be discussed without it turning into a yelling match.
What do you think the factors are in such a decision? How should it be done if you think it should be done?
Moral obligations
Political Agenda
Security Issues
Visualize Whirled Peas
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- DocBlues
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7 years 6 months ago #13689
by DocBlues
Given the qualifiers you've put on this hypothetical scenario, I would say "no." I would have said "yes" with the following modifications.
1. Remove "hostile" nations. In my judgement, there are no assurances that an adversary will use the shared information to stop a terrorist attack. They might use it instead to compromise our intelligence gathering or that of our allies. Once that information is released, we have no control over how an enemy nation might use it.
2. Include a provision that information should only be shared after consultation with the U.S. intelligence community and, if the information came from an ally, after that ally approves the sharing of the information.
Now, let me comment on the specific incident involving Dolt 45 last week. First, why was the Russian press allowed to attend this meeting but the U.S. press was not? Why would a known Russian spy, this fellow Kislyak, be invited to the Oval Office? It didn't take very long for the source of the intelligence, Israel, to be identified and the potential for adverse impacts on their intelligence gathering is considerable. This is a situation that could literally cost operatives and their families their lives. I would ask why he felt sharing this information with the Russians was a good idea. The only answer I can come up with at this time is "because he could."
The POTUS is sworn to protect the citizens of this country, so I think that national security issues should have the highest priority when such actions are being contemplated.
1. Remove "hostile" nations. In my judgement, there are no assurances that an adversary will use the shared information to stop a terrorist attack. They might use it instead to compromise our intelligence gathering or that of our allies. Once that information is released, we have no control over how an enemy nation might use it.
2. Include a provision that information should only be shared after consultation with the U.S. intelligence community and, if the information came from an ally, after that ally approves the sharing of the information.
Now, let me comment on the specific incident involving Dolt 45 last week. First, why was the Russian press allowed to attend this meeting but the U.S. press was not? Why would a known Russian spy, this fellow Kislyak, be invited to the Oval Office? It didn't take very long for the source of the intelligence, Israel, to be identified and the potential for adverse impacts on their intelligence gathering is considerable. This is a situation that could literally cost operatives and their families their lives. I would ask why he felt sharing this information with the Russians was a good idea. The only answer I can come up with at this time is "because he could."
The POTUS is sworn to protect the citizens of this country, so I think that national security issues should have the highest priority when such actions are being contemplated.
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7 years 6 months ago #13690
by Kong
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Maybe a better way to look at it as I was trying to put out areas that might influence the decision.
In my mind it is almost a decision tree situation.
Could the information stop a terrorist attack? Yes move on to next step. No end discussion
Was it US gathered? Yes, move on to the next step. No, ask for permission from international partner. If granted go to next step.
Could the information expose intelligence assets or techniques? Yes, move on to the next step. No. provide the information.
Can the information be scrubbed such that those assets or techniques can be protected. If Yes, provide the information scrubbed. If no, then you have a dilemma.
Do you essentially remove the assets and end the techniques that will be compromised in order to stop the attack, or do you let the attack take place? Can you stop the attack on your own? what would be involved? What political consequences would be involved? Would you need international assistance? etc.
I am sure I am missing a number of steps, but to me that kind of process didn't happen here. Just a knee jerk reaction and rather amazingly idiotic execution as you pointed out Doc.
Very strange times we live in
In my mind it is almost a decision tree situation.
Could the information stop a terrorist attack? Yes move on to next step. No end discussion
Was it US gathered? Yes, move on to the next step. No, ask for permission from international partner. If granted go to next step.
Could the information expose intelligence assets or techniques? Yes, move on to the next step. No. provide the information.
Can the information be scrubbed such that those assets or techniques can be protected. If Yes, provide the information scrubbed. If no, then you have a dilemma.
Do you essentially remove the assets and end the techniques that will be compromised in order to stop the attack, or do you let the attack take place? Can you stop the attack on your own? what would be involved? What political consequences would be involved? Would you need international assistance? etc.
I am sure I am missing a number of steps, but to me that kind of process didn't happen here. Just a knee jerk reaction and rather amazingly idiotic execution as you pointed out Doc.
Very strange times we live in
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7 years 6 months ago #13691
by DocBlues
What you propose is a commonsense approach to this question. Unfortunately, common sense seems in short supply in D.C. As you correctly note, these are very strange times that we are living in. I'm curious as to whether or not you think 45 will make it through his term.
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7 years 6 months ago #13692
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There are some days that I am completely stunned by the idiocy and think he will be gone. There are other days that if you look at the actual actions that people are grousing about, they aren't as bad as we are being told they are.
In the end, I think it will be very difficult to get rid of any sitting President. The partisan politics are just so very strong anymore and neither party has very much of a moral stand to point a finger. There will have to be a clear and convincing case regarding an issue such as Russian collusion for it to come to pass. I just am not certain that the average person will ever be able to see it with the media so jumbled the way it is. Any impeachment will be filled with fake news, falsehoods, obfuscation, etc. Folks who want him gone will point at one set of "sources" and folks who want he to remain will focus on another set of "sources". The internet through its ability to provide everyone with a voice and everyone with the ability to claim knowledge or facts has forced mainstream media further beyond the edge of creating news rather than reporting it. Very difficult anymore to really ascertain truth from fiction.
I know that was a side ramble, but it does feed in to whether or not the President will survive through the end of his term.
My hope is that regardless of whether he gets ousted or not, the next election has two candidates that are worthy of our vote.
In the end, I think it will be very difficult to get rid of any sitting President. The partisan politics are just so very strong anymore and neither party has very much of a moral stand to point a finger. There will have to be a clear and convincing case regarding an issue such as Russian collusion for it to come to pass. I just am not certain that the average person will ever be able to see it with the media so jumbled the way it is. Any impeachment will be filled with fake news, falsehoods, obfuscation, etc. Folks who want him gone will point at one set of "sources" and folks who want he to remain will focus on another set of "sources". The internet through its ability to provide everyone with a voice and everyone with the ability to claim knowledge or facts has forced mainstream media further beyond the edge of creating news rather than reporting it. Very difficult anymore to really ascertain truth from fiction.
I know that was a side ramble, but it does feed in to whether or not the President will survive through the end of his term.
My hope is that regardless of whether he gets ousted or not, the next election has two candidates that are worthy of our vote.
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7 years 6 months ago #13694
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