×
Rock Chalk Talk: Basketball
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Revalation on HD
- NotOstertag
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 2001
- Thank you received: 2266
3 months 5 days ago #33351
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
Posted this elsewhere, but it came to me after the last game.
My dilemma continues to be what looks like lousy basketball....tipping intead of grabbing rebounds, shying away from contact, opting for baby hooks and lay ins rather than going to the rim to score, slow feet, mediocre defense...I think that covers it. Anyway, despite these faults that drive me absolutely crazy, more often than not, he'll walk off the floor with a double double.
From a stats perspective he's geat, but from my "Mark 1 Eyeball" analysis, he's not very good at all. I can also hear every coach I ever had, and every coach I've ever observed chastising players for of the the aforementioned weaknesses in his game when I watch him play.
By whaty I've always been told, the behaviours I mentioned all fall into the category of "bad basketball". Yet the double doubles continue.
Therefore I've decided that HD is possibly the most talented practitioner of "bad basketball" I've ever seen. Yes, he could be SO MUCH BETTER if he fixed these faults, but I'm resigned to the reality that he never will, so we're kind of stuck with having to give considerable minutes to the best bad basketball player in the country...by a longshot I might add.
The OTHER revelation that this leads to is that as a "great bad basketball player" we shouldn't be relyig on him for leadership. DeJuan, Mayo, KJ and now Shak have all demonstrated varying levels of "spark" and leadership, so I think that's where we need to look for that role.
Thoughts? Is it possible to be a really good bad basketball player?
My dilemma continues to be what looks like lousy basketball....tipping intead of grabbing rebounds, shying away from contact, opting for baby hooks and lay ins rather than going to the rim to score, slow feet, mediocre defense...I think that covers it. Anyway, despite these faults that drive me absolutely crazy, more often than not, he'll walk off the floor with a double double.
From a stats perspective he's geat, but from my "Mark 1 Eyeball" analysis, he's not very good at all. I can also hear every coach I ever had, and every coach I've ever observed chastising players for of the the aforementioned weaknesses in his game when I watch him play.
By whaty I've always been told, the behaviours I mentioned all fall into the category of "bad basketball". Yet the double doubles continue.
Therefore I've decided that HD is possibly the most talented practitioner of "bad basketball" I've ever seen. Yes, he could be SO MUCH BETTER if he fixed these faults, but I'm resigned to the reality that he never will, so we're kind of stuck with having to give considerable minutes to the best bad basketball player in the country...by a longshot I might add.
The OTHER revelation that this leads to is that as a "great bad basketball player" we shouldn't be relyig on him for leadership. DeJuan, Mayo, KJ and now Shak have all demonstrated varying levels of "spark" and leadership, so I think that's where we need to look for that role.
Thoughts? Is it possible to be a really good bad basketball player?
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
The following user(s) said Thank You: sasnak, boulderhawk
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Share this page:
- Bayhawk
-
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 2010
- Thank you received: 902
3 months 5 days ago #33352
by Bayhawk
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
Great post NotO!
I'd add selfish and self absorbed in a "Bill Walton" sort of way.
Good "bad basketball player"? I'd say he plays his game for himself, with little regard for how much he could improve the team by achieving his real potential.
My $.02.
RC
I'd add selfish and self absorbed in a "Bill Walton" sort of way.
Good "bad basketball player"? I'd say he plays his game for himself, with little regard for how much he could improve the team by achieving his real potential.
My $.02.
RC
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
The following user(s) said Thank You: sasnak, boulderhawk
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- hoshi
-
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 484
- Thank you received: 763
3 months 5 days ago #33353
by hoshi
“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits”. Albert Einstein
I disagree with both assessments. I have my own opinion but will not share it publicly about this or any other KU player. We all have our faults and limitations, including this author..
“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits”. Albert Einstein
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bayhawk, boulderhawk, jaythawk1
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- jaythawk1
-
- Offline
- Elite Member
-
- RCJH! e'77, b'77
Less
More
- Posts: 161
- Thank you received: 91
3 months 5 days ago #33354
by jaythawk1
Education Is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence~Robert Frost
I agree with Hoshi...
I feel frustrated that I can't get inside that gifted athlete and drive it around and do the things I think it can do, but in the end its his to do the driving. He and everyone are who they are...
I'm appreciative of the range of emotions that this team has given me already this season and hope for more...makes you feel alive. I hope for their success at becoming the best they can be.
Rock Chalk Jayhawks!
I feel frustrated that I can't get inside that gifted athlete and drive it around and do the things I think it can do, but in the end its his to do the driving. He and everyone are who they are...
I'm appreciative of the range of emotions that this team has given me already this season and hope for more...makes you feel alive. I hope for their success at becoming the best they can be.
Rock Chalk Jayhawks!
Education Is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence~Robert Frost
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bayhawk, boulderhawk
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- sasnak
-
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 323
- Thank you received: 331
3 months 5 days ago #33355
by sasnak
It'll feel better when it stops hurting
I'll tiptoe in here and will probably get blasted. I have watched big men for a few years. There are few gifted ones and I think Dok & Joel were the last two of ours that come to mind. Both worked on their footwork and considering neither had been playing basketball very long they both seemed fairly gifted esp Joel. I also watched Zach Eddy the last two years he played and came to this assessment. If you are 7'2-7'4' and your team generally plays the ball through you then you will pretty much get your double double every single game. Hunter is big but not especially athletic and unlike Dok and Joel can miss many shots right at the rim. I will also say that when we signed Hunter I was VERY unhappy because we had a mass exodus and one of those that was Ernie Udeh, who I thought was on the verge of exploding. Sure he gets minutes at TCU but I think about what he could have been had he stayed at KU. So now I watch Flory and I KNOW the future is bright with him in it. He is a pleasure to watch and is obviously a team player.
Even though we have some extraordinary talent on this team (Zeke anyone?) I really don't plan on us getting very far this year. There is something wrong with the chemistry/cohesiveness of this team. I'd like to be pleasantly surprised but...I watch every game and will continue to but something ain't right. I'd be very happy to eat crow down the road. jmho
Even though we have some extraordinary talent on this team (Zeke anyone?) I really don't plan on us getting very far this year. There is something wrong with the chemistry/cohesiveness of this team. I'd like to be pleasantly surprised but...I watch every game and will continue to but something ain't right. I'd be very happy to eat crow down the road. jmho
It'll feel better when it stops hurting
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bayhawk, jaythawk1
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- NotOstertag
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 2001
- Thank you received: 2266
3 months 5 days ago #33356
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
I don't disagree with anyone's reluctance to criticize these kids. I was also probably the biggest Eric Chenowith apologist in the KU fanbase during his time with us.
I feel a little less protective, however, with the current state of college basketball. According to what's been reported, he's making about $1.7 million in NIL money, so in that regard, he's a professional athlete.
Most of my cirticisms comes from an apparent lack of effort rather than a physcial limitation. If you have slow feet, you have slow feet. If you can't jump high, you can't jump high.
But having been chewed out by coaches as a youngster for many things I see from him (not GRABBING the ball while rebounding...hell not even going after it with both hands, or being timid in the post) it makes me wonder why he's getting paid so much. I do know that if an opposing coach exactly what to expect and how to defend it.
Final comment: there was a scrum for the ball on the floor in the 2nd half of the ASU game. I can't remember who exactly was on the floor getting after it, but it was 2 or 3 players for each team. Meanwhile, HD was standing over the mess looking like he didn't want to get dirty. I'm not saying he should have jumped on the pile and hurt himself or somebody else, but the replay definitely looked like something most players would be embarassed by.
I feel a little less protective, however, with the current state of college basketball. According to what's been reported, he's making about $1.7 million in NIL money, so in that regard, he's a professional athlete.
Most of my cirticisms comes from an apparent lack of effort rather than a physcial limitation. If you have slow feet, you have slow feet. If you can't jump high, you can't jump high.
But having been chewed out by coaches as a youngster for many things I see from him (not GRABBING the ball while rebounding...hell not even going after it with both hands, or being timid in the post) it makes me wonder why he's getting paid so much. I do know that if an opposing coach exactly what to expect and how to defend it.
Final comment: there was a scrum for the ball on the floor in the 2nd half of the ASU game. I can't remember who exactly was on the floor getting after it, but it was 2 or 3 players for each team. Meanwhile, HD was standing over the mess looking like he didn't want to get dirty. I'm not saying he should have jumped on the pile and hurt himself or somebody else, but the replay definitely looked like something most players would be embarassed by.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
The following user(s) said Thank You: HawkErrant
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Bayhawk
-
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 2010
- Thank you received: 902
3 months 5 days ago #33358
by Bayhawk
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
And another thing!!! 
Isi t just me, or is HD carrying a "thug" rep.?
Just askin'
--RC
Isi t just me, or is HD carrying a "thug" rep.?
Just askin'
--RC
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- HawkErrant
-
- Offline
- Moderator
-
- b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
Less
More
- Posts: 7249
- Thank you received: 5819
3 months 5 days ago - 3 months 5 days ago #33359
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
My 2ȼ, based solely on what I have seen on the court and sidelines...
• He is fairly athletic, especially for a big, but not top shelf athletic. He is tall and quick enough to get a good number of blocked and altered shots on the opponent, and generally positions himself well enough to get enough rebounds each game to get the aforementioned double-doubles.
• I see a Hunter who *is* a team player, but I have not seen a team *leader.*
- On offense he is not a black hole (like some bigs we have known in AFH and have seen have decent NBA careers afterwards). He makes the pass out to the arc as often and as well as anyone, and he is good at making the outlet pass on fastbreaks. His current 2.4 assists per game is the best of his entire collegiate career.
- On defense he tries to execute the defensive tactics asked of him, but he is a step slow on recovering from outside into the post, making him vulnerable to being beat. (There's a coaching question there which I am not qualified to address, and it's on the staff, not Hunter). In my opinion his defense is his biggest weakness, to the point that against players strong and tall enough to challenge him he too often loses the battle of the paint.
• His shooting has not lived up to his reputation coming to KU. His FG% is at the lowest it has been in his collegiate career. Is it his mechanics (NotO's "bad basketball" details) or is it more his mindset?
• Which brings me to my biggest concern - what I do not see is an aggressive, mentally tough player. He is - to use the dreaded Coach Self perjorative - "soft". He too often avoids challenge on the court, takes the easier 5-8 footer instead of powering to the hoop, missing so many potential FT opportunities, and even getting blocked by smaller opponents as he tries to make a layup instead of going for the dunk. I do not see him as the guy I want to take the shots at the end of the game because I don't see the "I got this" attitude we are used to seeing in the best players.
Both on court and on the sidelines -- you know how some people radiate a feeling, an aura of power, of positive energy, and some people seem to be Casper Milquetoast? Show strength or weakness? Predator or prey? I watch Hunter and I do not see "strong", I see "concerned" or "upset" and sometimes even "defeated". As such I do not see him lifting up his teammates, raising them up with him because, right or wrong, he does not seem to me to have the personality and mindset to do that.
Of course you don't have to be great in that regard to inspire your teammates. As an example think of how David McCormack in his senior year, working through his recovery, the physical therapy he went through each day just to be able to get out on the court and play, was an inspirational example for his teammates. He wasn't the rally-round-the-flag-boys type like the also injured that year Remy Martin was, but he still was setting a positive example for the others that you know they recognized and drew from.
Both David and Remy were tough.
Hunter continues to show he is not...
• He is fairly athletic, especially for a big, but not top shelf athletic. He is tall and quick enough to get a good number of blocked and altered shots on the opponent, and generally positions himself well enough to get enough rebounds each game to get the aforementioned double-doubles.
• I see a Hunter who *is* a team player, but I have not seen a team *leader.*
- On offense he is not a black hole (like some bigs we have known in AFH and have seen have decent NBA careers afterwards). He makes the pass out to the arc as often and as well as anyone, and he is good at making the outlet pass on fastbreaks. His current 2.4 assists per game is the best of his entire collegiate career.
- On defense he tries to execute the defensive tactics asked of him, but he is a step slow on recovering from outside into the post, making him vulnerable to being beat. (There's a coaching question there which I am not qualified to address, and it's on the staff, not Hunter). In my opinion his defense is his biggest weakness, to the point that against players strong and tall enough to challenge him he too often loses the battle of the paint.
• His shooting has not lived up to his reputation coming to KU. His FG% is at the lowest it has been in his collegiate career. Is it his mechanics (NotO's "bad basketball" details) or is it more his mindset?
• Which brings me to my biggest concern - what I do not see is an aggressive, mentally tough player. He is - to use the dreaded Coach Self perjorative - "soft". He too often avoids challenge on the court, takes the easier 5-8 footer instead of powering to the hoop, missing so many potential FT opportunities, and even getting blocked by smaller opponents as he tries to make a layup instead of going for the dunk. I do not see him as the guy I want to take the shots at the end of the game because I don't see the "I got this" attitude we are used to seeing in the best players.
Both on court and on the sidelines -- you know how some people radiate a feeling, an aura of power, of positive energy, and some people seem to be Casper Milquetoast? Show strength or weakness? Predator or prey? I watch Hunter and I do not see "strong", I see "concerned" or "upset" and sometimes even "defeated". As such I do not see him lifting up his teammates, raising them up with him because, right or wrong, he does not seem to me to have the personality and mindset to do that.
Of course you don't have to be great in that regard to inspire your teammates. As an example think of how David McCormack in his senior year, working through his recovery, the physical therapy he went through each day just to be able to get out on the court and play, was an inspirational example for his teammates. He wasn't the rally-round-the-flag-boys type like the also injured that year Remy Martin was, but he still was setting a positive example for the others that you know they recognized and drew from.
Both David and Remy were tough.
Hunter continues to show he is not...
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Last Edit: 3 months 5 days ago by HawkErrant.
The following user(s) said Thank You: sasnak, Bayhawk
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- hairyhawk
-
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 1237
- Thank you received: 756
3 months 5 days ago - 3 months 5 days ago #33361
by hairyhawk
I am hoping for The Shak, Dejaun combo to be as disruptive as The Russ Rob, Mario back court. I know this is a change of subject from the Hunter analysis but I am hopeful of better defense.
Last Edit: 3 months 5 days ago by hairyhawk.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Bayhawk
-
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 2010
- Thank you received: 902
3 months 5 days ago #33363
by Bayhawk
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
As am I Hairy! And it can happen. 
RC
RC
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- NotOstertag
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 2001
- Thank you received: 2266
3 months 4 days ago #33366
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
Good observations HE.
Also I think Bayhawk is onto something. I don't think he's there yet, but he's had enough "grey area" activity that he needs to be careful. In his defense, his reputation as such a great big man means that he'll have 2 or more guys hanging off of him and refs slow to whistle because if you're as good as he (supposedly) is, you shouldn't be bothered by some incidental hacks. This would be frustrating to any player and he's letting it show.
With that being the case, he needs to develop a thicker skin, but also needs Self and his assistants working the refs when he's getting mauled inside. In the "good old days" a well placed and "incidental" forearm to a guy's jaw would often solve the problem, but that's not allowed these days.
Also I think Bayhawk is onto something. I don't think he's there yet, but he's had enough "grey area" activity that he needs to be careful. In his defense, his reputation as such a great big man means that he'll have 2 or more guys hanging off of him and refs slow to whistle because if you're as good as he (supposedly) is, you shouldn't be bothered by some incidental hacks. This would be frustrating to any player and he's letting it show.
With that being the case, he needs to develop a thicker skin, but also needs Self and his assistants working the refs when he's getting mauled inside. In the "good old days" a well placed and "incidental" forearm to a guy's jaw would often solve the problem, but that's not allowed these days.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bayhawk
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- hairyhawk
-
- Offline
- Platinum Member
-
Less
More
- Posts: 1237
- Thank you received: 756
2 months 4 weeks ago #33422
by hairyhawk
I wanted to point out a couple things on HD's game. As much as some would say it is just bad basketball he does some fundamental things really well. He keeps his hands ready and is good at catching passes that are tough to handle. He also does not bring the ball down when he gets an offensive rebound and goes back up. He also sets really solid screens.
The following user(s) said Thank You: HawkErrant, DocBlues, newtonhawk
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.