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Rock Chalk Talk: Basketball
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
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- hoshi
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11 months 1 week ago #31830
by hoshi
“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits”. Albert Einstein
Most Consecutive NCAA Tournament Appearances (Head Coach)
Tom Izzo — 25 (1998-Present; Michigan State)
Mike Krzyzewski — 24 (1996-2019; Duke)
Bill Self — 24 (1999-Present; Tulsa, Illinois, Kansas)
Dean Smith — 23 (1975-1997; North Carolina)
Mark Few — 21 (2000-Present; Gonzaga)
Roy Williams — 20 (1989-2009; Kansas, North Carolina)
Bob Knight — 15 (1986-2000; Indiana)
Most Consecutive NCAA Tournament Appearances (Program)
Kansas — 33 (1990-Present)
North Carolina — 27 (1975-2001)
Michigan State — 25 (1998-Present)
Duke — 24 (1996-2019)
Gonzaga — 24 (1999-Present)
Wisconsin — 19 (1999-2017)
Indiana — 18 (1986-2003)
Kentucky — 17 (1992-2008)
UCLA — 15 (1967-1981)
Self and KU are having an amazing run. We are so lucky. Izzo’s NCAA’s run may end this year.
Tom Izzo — 25 (1998-Present; Michigan State)
Mike Krzyzewski — 24 (1996-2019; Duke)
Bill Self — 24 (1999-Present; Tulsa, Illinois, Kansas)
Dean Smith — 23 (1975-1997; North Carolina)
Mark Few — 21 (2000-Present; Gonzaga)
Roy Williams — 20 (1989-2009; Kansas, North Carolina)
Bob Knight — 15 (1986-2000; Indiana)
Most Consecutive NCAA Tournament Appearances (Program)
Kansas — 33 (1990-Present)
North Carolina — 27 (1975-2001)
Michigan State — 25 (1998-Present)
Duke — 24 (1996-2019)
Gonzaga — 24 (1999-Present)
Wisconsin — 19 (1999-2017)
Indiana — 18 (1986-2003)
Kentucky — 17 (1992-2008)
UCLA — 15 (1967-1981)
Self and KU are having an amazing run. We are so lucky. Izzo’s NCAA’s run may end this year.
“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits”. Albert Einstein
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- NotOstertag
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11 months 1 week ago #31831
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
Great stuff. For all you hear/read about UCLA, Duke, and some other programs, it's little factoids like these that put into perspective how amazing our program is. We had a very good program under Larry Brown and Roy Williams, but Self's consistency is fairly mind blowing. The fact that we can still claim more conference championships (in a perennially difficult league) than home losses is something that I don't see ever being topped.
Sometimes when you're in the midst of greatness, you don't appreciate it (like last week when we were down to Mizzou in the first half). Being able to step back and admire the huge accomplishments that Self has brought to KU puts everything into perspective.
Sometimes when you're in the midst of greatness, you don't appreciate it (like last week when we were down to Mizzou in the first half). Being able to step back and admire the huge accomplishments that Self has brought to KU puts everything into perspective.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
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- USAF Jayhawk
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11 months 1 week ago #31833
by USAF Jayhawk
I think KU and HCBS both lost that streak when the IARP ruling took away the 2018 Tourney. Not sure however as the wording was not clear. Also was led to believe that the conference streak was also stopped that year.
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11 months 1 week ago #31834
by HawkErrant
Yeah, technically correct. Only problem the NCAA has with trying to vacate "appearances" is that the games *were* played, and all you can really do is take away the wins. Can't really take away the "appearances" -- which include the LOSSES (there were 5 "appearances" where the other guy won) -- and even if you say you are, people still remember them.
And all the records books still show the appearances in the games, just with the notation (in some cases) that they were later vacated.
One small example of the NCAA's problem -
If KU never appeared in the 2018 NCAA Tournament, then how can Villanova have a W for beating Kansas in the Final Four on its way to winning the title that year? I can guarantee you that every Nova player and fan that remembers touts that win against KU that year.
I have found no indication that the records of the teams that lost in those 15 vacated wins (8 regular season conference games, 3 Big 12 T games and 4 NCAA T games) have been adjusted in the aftermath, and to the best of my knowledge no other team has been retroactively declared Big 12 2017-18 regular season champion by the conference.
big12sports.com: Men's Basketball standings 2017-18 as of 2023-12-15
Stupid punishment vacating games. Means nothing. Those games were played, the losers lost and nothing else changes as far as the official records. And if "appearances" disappear, then how can teams that WON games against the punished program have those wins in their records?
The reality is that there are no changes to the records anywhere except for the notation that the NCAA does not recognize the Wins or any resultant titles.
(1) It's too much ultimately meaningless admin work for teams and conferences to change records
(2) the losers are not retroactively declared winners, and titles taken away are not then awarded to the runner(s) up, and
(3) the players that played and the fans that watched know the game results and that's what they will remember.
IMO punishments for using an ineligible player should be limited to administrative punishments, not changing W-L records.
Take $, take away titles, limit scholarships going forward, etc.
But even if they *must* take away Wins -- take away "appearances"?
Even the official NCAA records don't do that.
ncaa.com: Men's Basketball Championship History as of 2023-12-15
And there it is.
They can call it what they want, but Louisville's participation -- it's "appearance" -- is dutifully and properly recorded for history in the official records.
The NCAA may not officially recognize it, but their records -- and the rest of the world -- do.
Bottom line for me?
NCAA won't let KU celebrate the conference title with a banner? Accepted
NCAA won't let KU celebrate the Final Four game with a banner? Accepted
But its own records acknowledge KU's "appearances".
NCAA can go pound sand
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
USAF Jayhawk wrote: I think KU and HCBS both lost that streak when the IARP ruling took away the 2018 Tourney. Not sure however as the wording was not clear. Also was led to believe that the conference streak was also stopped that year.
Yeah, technically correct. Only problem the NCAA has with trying to vacate "appearances" is that the games *were* played, and all you can really do is take away the wins. Can't really take away the "appearances" -- which include the LOSSES (there were 5 "appearances" where the other guy won) -- and even if you say you are, people still remember them.
And all the records books still show the appearances in the games, just with the notation (in some cases) that they were later vacated.
One small example of the NCAA's problem -
If KU never appeared in the 2018 NCAA Tournament, then how can Villanova have a W for beating Kansas in the Final Four on its way to winning the title that year? I can guarantee you that every Nova player and fan that remembers touts that win against KU that year.
I have found no indication that the records of the teams that lost in those 15 vacated wins (8 regular season conference games, 3 Big 12 T games and 4 NCAA T games) have been adjusted in the aftermath, and to the best of my knowledge no other team has been retroactively declared Big 12 2017-18 regular season champion by the conference.
big12sports.com: Men's Basketball standings 2017-18 as of 2023-12-15
TEAM BIG 12 PCT. HOME AWAY STREAK OVERALL PCT. HOME AWAY NEUTRAL STREAK
Kansas 13-5 .722 13-5 0-0 L1 31-8 .795 20-7 1-0 10-1 L1
Texas Tech 11-7 .611 11-7 0-0 W1 27-10 .730 20-7 1-0 6-3 L1
West Virginia 11-7 .611 11-7 0-0 L1 26-11 .703 18-8 1-0 7-3 L1
Kansas State 10-8 .556 10-8 0-0 W1 25-12 .676 18-8 1-0 6-4 L1
TCU 9-9 .500 9-9 0-0 L1 21-12 .636 18-9 0-1 3-2 L3
Baylor 8-10 .444 8-10 0-0 L1 19-15 .559 16-12 0-2 3-1 L1
Texas 8-10 .444 8-10 0-0 W1 19-15 .559 15-11 1-0 3-4 L2
Oklahoma State 8-10 .444 8-10 0-0 W2 20-15 .571 17-12 0-1 3-2 L1
Oklahoma 8-10 .444 8-10 0-0 W1 18-14 .562 14-10 1-1 3-3 L2
Iowa State 4-14 .222 4-14 0-0 L6 13-18 .419 9-16 1-1 3-1 L7Stupid punishment vacating games. Means nothing. Those games were played, the losers lost and nothing else changes as far as the official records. And if "appearances" disappear, then how can teams that WON games against the punished program have those wins in their records?
The reality is that there are no changes to the records anywhere except for the notation that the NCAA does not recognize the Wins or any resultant titles.
(1) It's too much ultimately meaningless admin work for teams and conferences to change records
(2) the losers are not retroactively declared winners, and titles taken away are not then awarded to the runner(s) up, and
(3) the players that played and the fans that watched know the game results and that's what they will remember.
IMO punishments for using an ineligible player should be limited to administrative punishments, not changing W-L records.
Take $, take away titles, limit scholarships going forward, etc.
But even if they *must* take away Wins -- take away "appearances"?
Even the official NCAA records don't do that.
ncaa.com: Men's Basketball Championship History as of 2023-12-15
YEAR CHAMPION COACH SCORE RUNNER-UP SITE
2023 UConn (31-8) Dan Hurley 76-59 San Diego State Houston, Tex.
2022 Kansas (34-6) Bill Self 72-69 North Carolina New Orleans, La.
2021 Baylor (28-2) Scott Drew 86-70 Gonzaga Indianapolis, Ind.
2020 Canceled due to Covid-19 -- -- -- -- --
2019 Virginia (35-3) Tony Bennett 85-77 (OT) Texas Tech Minneapolis, Minn.
2018 Villanova (36-4) Jay Wright 79-62 Michigan San Antonio, Tex.
2017 North Carolina (33-7) Roy Williams 71-65 Gonzaga Phoenix, Ariz.
2016 Villanova (35-5) Jay Wright 77-74 North Carolina Houston, Texas
2015 Duke (35-4) Mike Krzyzewski 68-63 Wisconsin Indianapolis, Ind.
2014 Connecticut (32-8) Kevin Ollie 60-54 Kentucky Arlington, Texas
2013 Louisville (35-5)* Rick Pitino 82-76 Michigan Atlanta, Ga.
.
.
.
*Louisville’s participation in the 2013 tournament was later vacated by the Committee on Infractions.And there it is.
They can call it what they want, but Louisville's participation -- it's "appearance" -- is dutifully and properly recorded for history in the official records.
The NCAA may not officially recognize it, but their records -- and the rest of the world -- do.
Bottom line for me?
NCAA won't let KU celebrate the conference title with a banner? Accepted
NCAA won't let KU celebrate the Final Four game with a banner? Accepted
But its own records acknowledge KU's "appearances".
NCAA can go pound sand
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bayhawk, hoshi
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