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Rock Chalk Talk: Basketball
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Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
With five national championships in 25 years, is UConn a blue blood? (ESPN)
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11 months 1 week ago #31826
by porthawk
Hard to say, but a claim can definitely be made.
They use a quantitative metric amongst the blue bloods to try to help. What's cool is that KU comes out on top when using that metric.
www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/sto...asketball-blue-blood
They use a quantitative metric amongst the blue bloods to try to help. What's cool is that KU comes out on top when using that metric.
www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/sto...asketball-blue-blood
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11 months 1 week ago #31839
by LKF_HAWK
It is annoying that UConn has had so much success. Openly annoyed that they got two titles in ‘11 and ‘14 as low seeds.
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11 months 1 week ago #31842
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
It all depends on how you define blue blood and whether it's a constantly evolving situation, or just "what is".
For example, if you feel that there's an expriation date on blue bloodedness, you could easily say that Kentucky and UCLA are out because they haven't done anything in a while. If, however, you look at the overall historical greatness and significance of a program, then they're in and UConn is probably out. If you beleive that "blue bloodedness" is a "current" and evolving thing, then you might have to put Michigan State in the mix (ignoring this season).
KU luckily falls into both categories. When your first coach is the inventor of the sport and you can trace the roots of other blue blood programs back to you (Rupp- UK, Smith- UNC, Wooden- UCLA), there's no arguing that KU isn't a (if not THE) historical program in the country. Our success that kept getting progrssivly better from Brown, to WIlliams, to HCBS clearly makes the case that we're a "current" blue blood as well.
I'm an old stick in the mud type, so I tend to want to keep Indiana and UCLA in the mix, and view UConn as "nouveau riche". If KU is the Rockefeller family, UConn is more like Jeff Bezos. Certainly wealthy beyond measure, but not "old money' rich like KU.
For example, if you feel that there's an expriation date on blue bloodedness, you could easily say that Kentucky and UCLA are out because they haven't done anything in a while. If, however, you look at the overall historical greatness and significance of a program, then they're in and UConn is probably out. If you beleive that "blue bloodedness" is a "current" and evolving thing, then you might have to put Michigan State in the mix (ignoring this season).
KU luckily falls into both categories. When your first coach is the inventor of the sport and you can trace the roots of other blue blood programs back to you (Rupp- UK, Smith- UNC, Wooden- UCLA), there's no arguing that KU isn't a (if not THE) historical program in the country. Our success that kept getting progrssivly better from Brown, to WIlliams, to HCBS clearly makes the case that we're a "current" blue blood as well.
I'm an old stick in the mud type, so I tend to want to keep Indiana and UCLA in the mix, and view UConn as "nouveau riche". If KU is the Rockefeller family, UConn is more like Jeff Bezos. Certainly wealthy beyond measure, but not "old money' rich like KU.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
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11 months 5 days ago #31853
by HawkErrant
Of all the programs to win four or more NCAA tournament titles, UConn is the ONLY one *not* in the top 10 All Time Winningest D1 men’s programs. In fact they didn’t crack the Top 25 until last year, and they have been playing basketball as long as most of them.
They have the 5 titles.
Won by 3 different coaches, including the current guy.
Both strong cases for inclusion.
But they have not had long term consistency.
Shoot, they haven’t had short term consistency, as LKF noted. They haven’t won a conference regular season title since 2006, not even last season, often finishing far out of the running, and have won just two conference tournament titles since then. Shoot, last season they didn’t win either, but won the NC.
In 2011 they were unranked (9-9 Big East) and close to totally missing the NCAA Tournament for the 3rd time in 5 years. Not exactly a “blue blood” program record. Kemba Walker put on his Superman garb and they won the Big East Tournament in 5 games, earning the automatic bid. He continued to shine as UConn ended up winning 11 straight postseason games to win the NC.
2014 saw Shabazz Napier don the cape for the Huskies.
So while they are definitely “new blood”, or as you wrote “nouveau riche”, they are not “blue blood”, at least not yet, in my book.
Dan Hurley has the chance to get them there. Time will tell.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
“Blue blood”, by most people’s definition refers to history and consistency, not just NCAA tournament titles.NotOstertag wrote: It all depends on how you define blue blood and whether it's a constantly evolving situation, or just "what is".
.
.
I'm an old stick in the mud type, so I tend to want to keep Indiana and UCLA in the mix, and view UConn as "nouveau riche". If KU is the Rockefeller family, UConn is more like Jeff Bezos. Certainly wealthy beyond measure, but not "old money' rich like KU.
Of all the programs to win four or more NCAA tournament titles, UConn is the ONLY one *not* in the top 10 All Time Winningest D1 men’s programs. In fact they didn’t crack the Top 25 until last year, and they have been playing basketball as long as most of them.
They have the 5 titles.
Won by 3 different coaches, including the current guy.
Both strong cases for inclusion.
But they have not had long term consistency.
Shoot, they haven’t had short term consistency, as LKF noted. They haven’t won a conference regular season title since 2006, not even last season, often finishing far out of the running, and have won just two conference tournament titles since then. Shoot, last season they didn’t win either, but won the NC.
In 2011 they were unranked (9-9 Big East) and close to totally missing the NCAA Tournament for the 3rd time in 5 years. Not exactly a “blue blood” program record. Kemba Walker put on his Superman garb and they won the Big East Tournament in 5 games, earning the automatic bid. He continued to shine as UConn ended up winning 11 straight postseason games to win the NC.
2014 saw Shabazz Napier don the cape for the Huskies.
So while they are definitely “new blood”, or as you wrote “nouveau riche”, they are not “blue blood”, at least not yet, in my book.
Dan Hurley has the chance to get them there. Time will tell.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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11 months 4 days ago - 11 months 4 days ago #31855
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
The OTHER 800 pound gorilla in this discussion is whether a program's status is based on the performance of one great coach, or if there's a winning tradition that spans multiple coaches. For example, KU had the founder of the game as a (losing) coach, Phog Allen, Larry Brown, Roy Williams and Bill Self, all Hall of Fame coaches.
Meanwhile programs like UCLA, Indiana and Duke may never have achieved "Blue Blood" status had it not been for guys like Wooden, Knight and K (ironically the last 2 from the same coaching tree). Moreover, would UNC's status have been secured solely on the basis of Frank McGuire's had Dean Smith chosen a different employer. Likewise with Adolph Rupp: would UK have turned into a basketball-centric program had Rupp gotten a job at Morehead State instead? And obviously, KU and Phog Allen can be given at least SOME credit in helping develop these future Hall of Famers.
My personal take is that most of the "other blue bloods" are one coach away from never becoming a blue blood in the first place. This is most obvious with UCLA, Indiana and Duke, but also worth discussion with UNC and UK. If anything, this strengthens UCONN's claim as they've had NCs under 3 different coaches (but still suffer from an overall "recent" record of success and lack a consistent high level of performance of the history of the program).
Finally, playing devil's advocate, you could make the same argument about KU if you pulled Phog Allen out of the mix.
Anyway, and I'm clearly biased here, UK and UNC should thank KU for providing them with the coaches who put them on the map, and Indiana and Duke owe a debt of thanks to the United States Military Academy for their status. So that's really what it boils down to: College Basketball would be a totally different thing if it hadn't been for KU and the US military.
Meanwhile programs like UCLA, Indiana and Duke may never have achieved "Blue Blood" status had it not been for guys like Wooden, Knight and K (ironically the last 2 from the same coaching tree). Moreover, would UNC's status have been secured solely on the basis of Frank McGuire's had Dean Smith chosen a different employer. Likewise with Adolph Rupp: would UK have turned into a basketball-centric program had Rupp gotten a job at Morehead State instead? And obviously, KU and Phog Allen can be given at least SOME credit in helping develop these future Hall of Famers.
My personal take is that most of the "other blue bloods" are one coach away from never becoming a blue blood in the first place. This is most obvious with UCLA, Indiana and Duke, but also worth discussion with UNC and UK. If anything, this strengthens UCONN's claim as they've had NCs under 3 different coaches (but still suffer from an overall "recent" record of success and lack a consistent high level of performance of the history of the program).
Finally, playing devil's advocate, you could make the same argument about KU if you pulled Phog Allen out of the mix.
Anyway, and I'm clearly biased here, UK and UNC should thank KU for providing them with the coaches who put them on the map, and Indiana and Duke owe a debt of thanks to the United States Military Academy for their status. So that's really what it boils down to: College Basketball would be a totally different thing if it hadn't been for KU and the US military.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
Last Edit: 11 months 4 days ago by NotOstertag.
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11 months 3 days ago - 11 months 2 days ago #31856
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
NotO, I disagree with your discussion on IU, UNC and UK on the “multiple head coaches” point.
INDIANA
In the years before the NCAA Tournament was born, Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame Coach Everett Dean (an IU alum) coached at Indiana for 14 years, winning 3 Big 10 titles. While he left for Stanford in 1938 (where he won the NCAAT title in 1942 for Stanford's one and only NCAAT crown), he is still a major part of IU history and blue blood credentials as IU's first great coach.
Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Famer Branch McCracken coached Indiana for a total of 24 seasons during the years from 1938 to 1965. While admittedly in the Hall as a player for IU (he did have 3 losing seasons in his IU coaching career), he won 4 Big 10 titles in that span, *and* beat Phog Allen's Jayhawks TWICE in NCAA NC games – 1940 and 1953 – for the first 2 of IU's 5 NCAAT titles.
IU NMBHOF Head Coaches
1924-38 Everett Dean (IU player, HoF as a coach)
1938-65 Branch McCracken (admittedly HoF as an IU player, but 2x NCAAT champion as IU HC)
1971-2000 Bob Knight (3x NCAAT champion, HoF)
Knight was the only HC of the 3 without IU roots (an Ohio kid, he was a benchwarmer at Ohio St behind Jerry Lucas and John Havlicek).
NORTH CAROLINA
ANY doubt about UNC belonging – and a further strengthening of the KU influence you note on this whole discussion – was eliminated when Roy took over there and went on to win 3 titles.
KENTUCKY
4 Rupp titles
1 Joe B Hall title
1 Rick Pitino title
1 Tubby Smith title
1 John Calipari title
The multiple HC winning titles argument supports them as well.
Please note that I am NOT making any argument for or against Joe B Hall, Tubby Smith or squid as great HCs, only noting that they each won a title while HC at UK.
On a more general note, there is the whole “recency” and “sustained excellence” arguments as well as the multiple coaches argument.
The All Time Winningest Programs status is just one criterion that demonstrates the latter – supporting KU, UK, UNC, Duke and UCLA – but it also highlights Temple (nope, no NCAATs, no recency), Syracuse (just one NCAAT, and losing it’s 5th place position as only the 5th program to get to 2000 wins hurts its standing), Notre Dame (nah), St. John’s (nah) and Indiana (arguably still Blue Blood but for “recency” – ow!).
And while “sustained excellence” damages UConn’s standing, “recency” has rocketed UConn into the discussion -- and KILLED IU and UCLA in the argument. And frankly if this same discussion were being held in 1980, KU would be on shaky ground due to the winning but not spectacular terms of Dick Harp and Ted Owens after Phog was forced to retire in 1956.
ANYWAY -- it seems for me “Blue Blood” is pretty clear today -
·KU: so many other things to go with all the winning
·UK: KU roots and winning, even if Squid hasn’t really helped them (talking with UK alums recently and they are NOT thrilled with him)
·UNC: KU roots starting with the Smith transplant. Hubert Davis on the hot seat post-Roy? 2022 was a darn good start, 7-3 so far 2024, but the 3 were UK, UConn and Villanova. (They play OU tonight.)
·Duke: Jon Scheyer was 27-9 in year one, 3rd in ACC; 7-3 so far 2024, the 3 being Arizona, Arkansas, Georgia Tech (play Baylor tonight)
·UCLA: 11 titles is so hard to ignore, and last year entered the Top 5 ATWP, but that “recency” dragon; Mick Cronin had a great 2023, but 5-5 so far 2024 …
·Indiana: probably not blue blood anymore due to the “recency” dragon, but if "in" they are hanging on by fingernails, not fingertips; Woodson 8-3 to date, but the 3 were KU, UConn and @Auburn
No one else with enough criteria met to qualify.
NEW BLOOD
·UConn is top dog. No arguments, despite their inconsistency. Five titles in 25 years with some miserable regular seasons in between. 6x to Final Four, 5 NCs.
# of NCAAT titles Won in Last 25 Years, 1999-2023 (NC/FF)
5 UConn (5/6)
3 UNC (3/7)
3 Duke (3/5)
2 KANSAS (2/6)
2 Villanova (2/4)
2 Florida (2/4) and nothing since Billy Donovan left after 2014
·Villanova – but with Jay Wright gone?
·Florida – but nada since Donovan left
·Michigan State – 1 title in 8 FFs since 1999 (last FF 2019; 10 FF all time)
·Gonzaga – 2 FFs since 1999, but no titles, and only has history under Mark Few (who – as an aside – was born on the exact same day as Bill Self).
Really, really hard to argue that UConn is not the “Next One In” to Blue Blood status, especially if D. Hurley can keep them on track peaking in March.
INDIANA
In the years before the NCAA Tournament was born, Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame Coach Everett Dean (an IU alum) coached at Indiana for 14 years, winning 3 Big 10 titles. While he left for Stanford in 1938 (where he won the NCAAT title in 1942 for Stanford's one and only NCAAT crown), he is still a major part of IU history and blue blood credentials as IU's first great coach.
Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Famer Branch McCracken coached Indiana for a total of 24 seasons during the years from 1938 to 1965. While admittedly in the Hall as a player for IU (he did have 3 losing seasons in his IU coaching career), he won 4 Big 10 titles in that span, *and* beat Phog Allen's Jayhawks TWICE in NCAA NC games – 1940 and 1953 – for the first 2 of IU's 5 NCAAT titles.
IU NMBHOF Head Coaches
1924-38 Everett Dean (IU player, HoF as a coach)
1938-65 Branch McCracken (admittedly HoF as an IU player, but 2x NCAAT champion as IU HC)
1971-2000 Bob Knight (3x NCAAT champion, HoF)
Knight was the only HC of the 3 without IU roots (an Ohio kid, he was a benchwarmer at Ohio St behind Jerry Lucas and John Havlicek).
NORTH CAROLINA
ANY doubt about UNC belonging – and a further strengthening of the KU influence you note on this whole discussion – was eliminated when Roy took over there and went on to win 3 titles.
KENTUCKY
4 Rupp titles
1 Joe B Hall title
1 Rick Pitino title
1 Tubby Smith title
1 John Calipari title
The multiple HC winning titles argument supports them as well.
Please note that I am NOT making any argument for or against Joe B Hall, Tubby Smith or squid as great HCs, only noting that they each won a title while HC at UK.
On a more general note, there is the whole “recency” and “sustained excellence” arguments as well as the multiple coaches argument.
The All Time Winningest Programs status is just one criterion that demonstrates the latter – supporting KU, UK, UNC, Duke and UCLA – but it also highlights Temple (nope, no NCAATs, no recency), Syracuse (just one NCAAT, and losing it’s 5th place position as only the 5th program to get to 2000 wins hurts its standing), Notre Dame (nah), St. John’s (nah) and Indiana (arguably still Blue Blood but for “recency” – ow!).
And while “sustained excellence” damages UConn’s standing, “recency” has rocketed UConn into the discussion -- and KILLED IU and UCLA in the argument. And frankly if this same discussion were being held in 1980, KU would be on shaky ground due to the winning but not spectacular terms of Dick Harp and Ted Owens after Phog was forced to retire in 1956.
ANYWAY -- it seems for me “Blue Blood” is pretty clear today -
·KU: so many other things to go with all the winning
·UK: KU roots and winning, even if Squid hasn’t really helped them (talking with UK alums recently and they are NOT thrilled with him)
·UNC: KU roots starting with the Smith transplant. Hubert Davis on the hot seat post-Roy? 2022 was a darn good start, 7-3 so far 2024, but the 3 were UK, UConn and Villanova. (They play OU tonight.)
·Duke: Jon Scheyer was 27-9 in year one, 3rd in ACC; 7-3 so far 2024, the 3 being Arizona, Arkansas, Georgia Tech (play Baylor tonight)
·UCLA: 11 titles is so hard to ignore, and last year entered the Top 5 ATWP, but that “recency” dragon; Mick Cronin had a great 2023, but 5-5 so far 2024 …
·Indiana: probably not blue blood anymore due to the “recency” dragon, but if "in" they are hanging on by fingernails, not fingertips; Woodson 8-3 to date, but the 3 were KU, UConn and @Auburn
No one else with enough criteria met to qualify.
NEW BLOOD
·UConn is top dog. No arguments, despite their inconsistency. Five titles in 25 years with some miserable regular seasons in between. 6x to Final Four, 5 NCs.
# of NCAAT titles Won in Last 25 Years, 1999-2023 (NC/FF)
5 UConn (5/6)
3 UNC (3/7)
3 Duke (3/5)
2 KANSAS (2/6)
2 Villanova (2/4)
2 Florida (2/4) and nothing since Billy Donovan left after 2014
·Villanova – but with Jay Wright gone?
·Florida – but nada since Donovan left
·Michigan State – 1 title in 8 FFs since 1999 (last FF 2019; 10 FF all time)
·Gonzaga – 2 FFs since 1999, but no titles, and only has history under Mark Few (who – as an aside – was born on the exact same day as Bill Self).
Really, really hard to argue that UConn is not the “Next One In” to Blue Blood status, especially if D. Hurley can keep them on track peaking in March.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Last Edit: 11 months 2 days ago by HawkErrant. Reason: Fixed UConn FF record
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11 months 3 days ago #31862
by LKF_HAWK
HE,
Always with the informative, well laid out post. However, UCONN is 5/6 , 2009 they lost to UNC in FF.
The dilemma of the NCAAT, modern world measures success by titles and in MCBB that is the NCAAT. But the tourney, like the NFL playoffs, is a single elimination crapshoot. It is downright annoying that the last 3 UCONN title teams, who got hot, are feted as champions, yes ‘88 was that for KU, but UCONN must be living right or they must have some dirt on Karma. unfortunately their fan base is starting to become more like the pukester ingrates. But what to you expect from the nouveau riche.
Glad the Hawks took them down.
Always with the informative, well laid out post. However, UCONN is 5/6 , 2009 they lost to UNC in FF.
The dilemma of the NCAAT, modern world measures success by titles and in MCBB that is the NCAAT. But the tourney, like the NFL playoffs, is a single elimination crapshoot. It is downright annoying that the last 3 UCONN title teams, who got hot, are feted as champions, yes ‘88 was that for KU, but UCONN must be living right or they must have some dirt on Karma. unfortunately their fan base is starting to become more like the pukester ingrates. But what to you expect from the nouveau riche.
Glad the Hawks took them down.
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11 months 2 days ago - 11 months 2 days ago #31863
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Thanks! Corrected!
In prepping that comment I did a manual search of the Wikipedia final four participants list and thought I’d pick up everything. Missed the 2009 UConn loss.
I probably just block out as much of 2009 as I can (still) because it was Roy‘s second title in 3 FF appearances in 6 years after having none in 4 FFs in 15 years at KU and I couldn’t (can’t ever?) handle the cognitive dissonance.
In prepping that comment I did a manual search of the Wikipedia final four participants list and thought I’d pick up everything. Missed the 2009 UConn loss.
I probably just block out as much of 2009 as I can (still) because it was Roy‘s second title in 3 FF appearances in 6 years after having none in 4 FFs in 15 years at KU and I couldn’t (can’t ever?) handle the cognitive dissonance.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Last Edit: 11 months 2 days ago by HawkErrant.
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11 months 1 day ago #31870
by LKF_HAWK
HE- haha. We just need HCBS to win a few more titles and that should do the trick.
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