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Rock Chalk Talk: Basketball
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Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
3-point shooting
- konza63
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1 year 3 weeks ago #31570
by konza63
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Regarding KU’s current outside shooting predicament, this is from Gary Bedore’s postgame wrap last night. We’re not panicking yet, right?
———
Self’s Jayhawks hit 3 of 12 3s in Sunday’s 82-75 loss to Illinois. That means in two exhibition games over the last four days KU buried just 9 3s in 40 attempts for 22.5%.
“I would think we are better than that, but I don’t think anybody’s thinking we’ve got Svi (Mykhailiuk), Gradey (Dick) and Malik (Newman) all out there at the same time,” Self said. “You can still have a terrific team and not make a lot of shots. We can play inside-out, do some different things. But you have to guard your man if you are not producing in some way, shape or form.”.
He further discussed KU’s misery from 3 on Wednesday. “We ran a play for Nick (Timberlake, 1-of-5 from 3 for three points) with two minutes left to shoot a 3. (He made it) so that knocks it down to five (3s in the flow of the game),” Self said. “Parker (Braun, 1-2 from 3 for five points) banked one in, that knocks it down to four. Kevin (McCullar, still slowed by whiplash suffered in Sunday’s Illinois game) almost didn’t play and he makes four. That’s 0-for-18 for everybody else.”
https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article281322838.html#storylink=cpy
———
Self’s Jayhawks hit 3 of 12 3s in Sunday’s 82-75 loss to Illinois. That means in two exhibition games over the last four days KU buried just 9 3s in 40 attempts for 22.5%.
“I would think we are better than that, but I don’t think anybody’s thinking we’ve got Svi (Mykhailiuk), Gradey (Dick) and Malik (Newman) all out there at the same time,” Self said. “You can still have a terrific team and not make a lot of shots. We can play inside-out, do some different things. But you have to guard your man if you are not producing in some way, shape or form.”.
He further discussed KU’s misery from 3 on Wednesday. “We ran a play for Nick (Timberlake, 1-of-5 from 3 for three points) with two minutes left to shoot a 3. (He made it) so that knocks it down to five (3s in the flow of the game),” Self said. “Parker (Braun, 1-2 from 3 for five points) banked one in, that knocks it down to four. Kevin (McCullar, still slowed by whiplash suffered in Sunday’s Illinois game) almost didn’t play and he makes four. That’s 0-for-18 for everybody else.”
https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article281322838.html#storylink=cpy
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bayhawk, boulderhawk, porthawk, jaythawk1
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- NotOstertag
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1 year 3 weeks ago #31572
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
It's always interesting to see what can be gleaned from preseason games, particularly when we play D2 teams like Fort Hays State.
Before I delve deeper, we need to state the obvious:
1.) It's November 2nd and EVERY team is clearly a "work in progress" so hitting any panic button or making any broad generalizations is iffy due to the limited data available.
2.) D2 opponents are a TERRIBLE barometer to judge how we'll actually play against the likes of the rest of the teams we'll face (although the Illinois game was a much BETTER barometer).
So where are we? Where will we end up? Here goes:
1.) Hunter Dickinson's resume presumes that he'll be a big contributor and even with his so-so performance against Illinois, he still got 20 points. By my view, his defense is fairly weak, but that can hopefully change. The big thing with him (as we saw last night) is that he's going to have 2 and sometime 3 guys hanging off of him, and he has to be ready to deal with it. On the upside, he does know how to pass the ball back out, so that's a very good thing (assuming our guys can hit jumpers) and he's averaging over 70% from the line, so "hack a Hunter" isn't a good strategy for opponents.
2.) John Furphy: good to see him get out an play last night. The one thing that stuck out to me was that he appeared to have a good amount of "hustle" out there. Hoping he gets/stays healthy and if so, he'll be a good add.
3.) Adams, Harris, and McCullar: exactly what I expected. Harris still needs to learn to shoot and maybe not be as unselfish, Adams is solid as a rock and McCullar has an opportunity to become a 'star' if he's able to take that next step.
4.) Clemence and Braun: Braun seems to have a little of his brother's intensity in him. He's better and more aggressive than I had expected/hoped. Clemence seems to have gotten a little more comfortable in the off season.
Now to your question of 3 point shooting. Timberlake is supposed to be "that guy". He shot 41.6% last year and was ranked #13 nationally. Then again, he played at Towson and glancing at their schedule from last year, it looks like they didn't play a single top 25 team (their November game vs. Virginia was cancelled).
With teams likely to collapse on Dickinson, we need a perimeter threat to keep teams honest. This can be in the form of consistent 3 point shooting (ideal) OR kickouts for mid-range jumpers or drives on the weak side (less ideal).
Time will tell. While we'd all like to have a Reggie Miller style dagger-delivery system from 3 (dating myself), it's also quite possible for us to go all the way in other ways.
Lots of games left to play. Lots of drama to unfold. Every team is only one or two injuries/scandals/bad luck incidents away from disaster.
Before I delve deeper, we need to state the obvious:
1.) It's November 2nd and EVERY team is clearly a "work in progress" so hitting any panic button or making any broad generalizations is iffy due to the limited data available.
2.) D2 opponents are a TERRIBLE barometer to judge how we'll actually play against the likes of the rest of the teams we'll face (although the Illinois game was a much BETTER barometer).
So where are we? Where will we end up? Here goes:
1.) Hunter Dickinson's resume presumes that he'll be a big contributor and even with his so-so performance against Illinois, he still got 20 points. By my view, his defense is fairly weak, but that can hopefully change. The big thing with him (as we saw last night) is that he's going to have 2 and sometime 3 guys hanging off of him, and he has to be ready to deal with it. On the upside, he does know how to pass the ball back out, so that's a very good thing (assuming our guys can hit jumpers) and he's averaging over 70% from the line, so "hack a Hunter" isn't a good strategy for opponents.
2.) John Furphy: good to see him get out an play last night. The one thing that stuck out to me was that he appeared to have a good amount of "hustle" out there. Hoping he gets/stays healthy and if so, he'll be a good add.
3.) Adams, Harris, and McCullar: exactly what I expected. Harris still needs to learn to shoot and maybe not be as unselfish, Adams is solid as a rock and McCullar has an opportunity to become a 'star' if he's able to take that next step.
4.) Clemence and Braun: Braun seems to have a little of his brother's intensity in him. He's better and more aggressive than I had expected/hoped. Clemence seems to have gotten a little more comfortable in the off season.
Now to your question of 3 point shooting. Timberlake is supposed to be "that guy". He shot 41.6% last year and was ranked #13 nationally. Then again, he played at Towson and glancing at their schedule from last year, it looks like they didn't play a single top 25 team (their November game vs. Virginia was cancelled).
With teams likely to collapse on Dickinson, we need a perimeter threat to keep teams honest. This can be in the form of consistent 3 point shooting (ideal) OR kickouts for mid-range jumpers or drives on the weak side (less ideal).
Time will tell. While we'd all like to have a Reggie Miller style dagger-delivery system from 3 (dating myself), it's also quite possible for us to go all the way in other ways.
Lots of games left to play. Lots of drama to unfold. Every team is only one or two injuries/scandals/bad luck incidents away from disaster.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
The following user(s) said Thank You: konza63, HawkErrant, hairyhawk, Bayhawk, boulderhawk, porthawk, newtonhawk, jaythawk1
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1 year 2 weeks ago #31597
by konza63
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Great stuff as always, NotO, and sorry for the delayed response. (Whirlwind week and weekend) A few riffs on your comments, as we get ready for the real deal tonight (Yippee!):
RE: hitting the panic button, I agree, 2 exhibitions aren't sufficient to hit it yet. But I did think it valuable to post Self's actual comments on the abysmal 3-point shooting as evidence that he has taken notice. (As have we) It's still early, but I'm seriously hoping this isn't our glaring Achilles Heel, because in this day and age of college hoops - just employing basic analytics and math - it is supremely hard to win at an elite level (and that is always KU's goal) without decent 3-point shooting.
One positive sign (albeit still early) was Kevin's seemingly improved touch and accuracy, at least in the last exhibition. I've read that he worked on his shot, as his primary weakness, all off-season. Here's to hoping he's much-improved there, because in the past when he's been off he's been woefully off - and he tends to like to put up a lot, even when drawing iron.
Timberlake definitely was recruited to be The Man from outside, and so far he's appeared a bit reticent to shoot. (Especially in the Illinois scrimmage) I was so glad to see him hit that late one against Fort Hays State, just to take the lid off and hopefully get him going. That shot, by the way, was beautiful in form, so that's positive sign #2.
Question for you and the gang: was 3-point shooting part of Furphy's resume? If so, that would further assuage concerns going forward. After that, we're down to Dajuan (streaky and often reluctant to shoot) and Hunter, assuming that Clemence will still be red-shirted.
Here's my overall gut concern, though. Maybe I wasn't watching closely enough, but KU looked a lot more dynamic, offensively, in Puerto Rico than they did in these 2 recent exhibitions. And the missing element was the attacking and long-range shooting of Arterior Morris. The little gnawing concern I have (voice in my ear) is that Morris was a pivotal element of our scoring attack that could prove to be a major loss once we get to March-April - if no one fills that hole in a major way. The kid was dynamic, fast, and clearly looked to be a superb scoring threat - evident in even limited minutes in Puerto Rico. Thus far, going off just 2 exhibitions, I've seen no one (as his fill-ins) come remotely close to what he was offering.
Will his sudden, unexpected departure prove to be the missing piece in our run toward another crown? Or will someone - or a couple someones - step up and fill that role admirably? Because let's face it, we need outside scoring threats - whether that's 3-shooters, slasher-drivers, or mid-range shooters - to come to the fore and offset the coming, for-sure double-teams and sagging in the paint to offset Hunter.
With respect to your other points, and looking more at the strengths side of the equation, I think the defensive combination of Dajuan, Kevin, and KJ is foundational and superb - it's a tremendous core to build on. (Arguably could be the best threesome returning defender package in the land) We just need Hunter to learn his role and execute properly, as you note, and then for the 5th and final starter (who I believe still hasn't yet been named?) to do the same. KU didn't guard the 3 well in the exhibitions, and that is always a concern with Self teams, IMHO. Gotta do well there, especially if we have off nights ourselves from outside.
Good point regarding Hunter and his passing prowess. He looks superb there, and that is HUGE for a guy with his height. Being able to tower over others and have the full picture of player movement, then hit the open shooter is crucial. And what I love about what we've seen so far is not only what you said about him kicking it outside from down low, but him operating in space at the top of the key and extended out from the block (and drawing defense), then finding an open, cutting KJ for the easy slams. THAT will be a problem for KU foes, to be sure.
Just to end with one closing concern, it's depth. (Again, sadly, back to the Arterior Morris departure and us not filling that with hole with a last-minute transfer of some sort) We have almost no margin for error - injuries, foul trouble, etc. - this year, and it's a long slog of a season. Self already was lamenting after the Fort Hays State game that the team was tired. Tired? Already? Yikes. In that vein, I wouldn't be surprised if, at some point, the redshirt comes off for Zach so that we have 10 guys instead of 9 for depth purposes. (I know Self ultimately likes to whittle down to about an 8-man rotation, or 9 tops, but still...)
I'm really looking forward to seeing the team - with live bullets that count - tonight and then against Manhattan, before we face arch-rival Kentucky in Chicago. I don't know about anyone else, but after that absolute curb-stomping UK put on us in Lawrence the last time we played, I want KU to beat Kentucky badly in the Champions Classic!
Here's to precisely that outcome coming to fruition, to a fantastic 2023-24 season, and to the good guys in crimson and blue lifting another championship trophy in Phoenix! Enjoy the games and season, everyone.
RE: hitting the panic button, I agree, 2 exhibitions aren't sufficient to hit it yet. But I did think it valuable to post Self's actual comments on the abysmal 3-point shooting as evidence that he has taken notice. (As have we) It's still early, but I'm seriously hoping this isn't our glaring Achilles Heel, because in this day and age of college hoops - just employing basic analytics and math - it is supremely hard to win at an elite level (and that is always KU's goal) without decent 3-point shooting.
One positive sign (albeit still early) was Kevin's seemingly improved touch and accuracy, at least in the last exhibition. I've read that he worked on his shot, as his primary weakness, all off-season. Here's to hoping he's much-improved there, because in the past when he's been off he's been woefully off - and he tends to like to put up a lot, even when drawing iron.
Timberlake definitely was recruited to be The Man from outside, and so far he's appeared a bit reticent to shoot. (Especially in the Illinois scrimmage) I was so glad to see him hit that late one against Fort Hays State, just to take the lid off and hopefully get him going. That shot, by the way, was beautiful in form, so that's positive sign #2.
Question for you and the gang: was 3-point shooting part of Furphy's resume? If so, that would further assuage concerns going forward. After that, we're down to Dajuan (streaky and often reluctant to shoot) and Hunter, assuming that Clemence will still be red-shirted.
Here's my overall gut concern, though. Maybe I wasn't watching closely enough, but KU looked a lot more dynamic, offensively, in Puerto Rico than they did in these 2 recent exhibitions. And the missing element was the attacking and long-range shooting of Arterior Morris. The little gnawing concern I have (voice in my ear) is that Morris was a pivotal element of our scoring attack that could prove to be a major loss once we get to March-April - if no one fills that hole in a major way. The kid was dynamic, fast, and clearly looked to be a superb scoring threat - evident in even limited minutes in Puerto Rico. Thus far, going off just 2 exhibitions, I've seen no one (as his fill-ins) come remotely close to what he was offering.
Will his sudden, unexpected departure prove to be the missing piece in our run toward another crown? Or will someone - or a couple someones - step up and fill that role admirably? Because let's face it, we need outside scoring threats - whether that's 3-shooters, slasher-drivers, or mid-range shooters - to come to the fore and offset the coming, for-sure double-teams and sagging in the paint to offset Hunter.
With respect to your other points, and looking more at the strengths side of the equation, I think the defensive combination of Dajuan, Kevin, and KJ is foundational and superb - it's a tremendous core to build on. (Arguably could be the best threesome returning defender package in the land) We just need Hunter to learn his role and execute properly, as you note, and then for the 5th and final starter (who I believe still hasn't yet been named?) to do the same. KU didn't guard the 3 well in the exhibitions, and that is always a concern with Self teams, IMHO. Gotta do well there, especially if we have off nights ourselves from outside.
Good point regarding Hunter and his passing prowess. He looks superb there, and that is HUGE for a guy with his height. Being able to tower over others and have the full picture of player movement, then hit the open shooter is crucial. And what I love about what we've seen so far is not only what you said about him kicking it outside from down low, but him operating in space at the top of the key and extended out from the block (and drawing defense), then finding an open, cutting KJ for the easy slams. THAT will be a problem for KU foes, to be sure.
Just to end with one closing concern, it's depth. (Again, sadly, back to the Arterior Morris departure and us not filling that with hole with a last-minute transfer of some sort) We have almost no margin for error - injuries, foul trouble, etc. - this year, and it's a long slog of a season. Self already was lamenting after the Fort Hays State game that the team was tired. Tired? Already? Yikes. In that vein, I wouldn't be surprised if, at some point, the redshirt comes off for Zach so that we have 10 guys instead of 9 for depth purposes. (I know Self ultimately likes to whittle down to about an 8-man rotation, or 9 tops, but still...)
I'm really looking forward to seeing the team - with live bullets that count - tonight and then against Manhattan, before we face arch-rival Kentucky in Chicago. I don't know about anyone else, but after that absolute curb-stomping UK put on us in Lawrence the last time we played, I want KU to beat Kentucky badly in the Champions Classic!
Here's to precisely that outcome coming to fruition, to a fantastic 2023-24 season, and to the good guys in crimson and blue lifting another championship trophy in Phoenix! Enjoy the games and season, everyone.
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
The following user(s) said Thank You: HawkErrant, Bayhawk, porthawk
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- NotOstertag
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1 year 2 weeks ago #31600
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
Good stuff and it prompted one other thought in regard to your observation that they looked looser in Puerto Rico than they have so far.
They were much "greener" when they went to PR and I think they only had something like a 7-10 days to practice before then. Assuming that's the case, I would imagine HCBS and staff would have lower expectations about executing certain things since they're still very new. The possible result is lowered expectations all around, which contributes to a more relaxed trip, and potentially a decent amount of "playground ball".
Fast forward to Illinois and FHS and they've got a LOT more coaching input and the expectations are higher. If you were forgiven for zigging instead of zagging in Puerto Rico, that some blunder with the season ready to start can put your butt on the bench because you should have learned your zigs and zags by now.
While this is just a wild theory, Coach's recent comments about and to Elmarko Jackson would seem to fall into this category. Elmarko is at that point where his stuck in his head, trying to hard to do everything "correctly" and Self texted him and told him to just go 100 mph and not worry about it. Self seems confident that enough of what he's been pushing has become a reflex enough for Elmarko to stop worrying about mistakes.
This could apply on a larger scale where there are several versions of the Elmarko situation on the team, and not only does he need to "just play" and trust himself a little, but maybe the same holds true for Dickensen, Timberlake and a few others too.
Again, just a guess, but at least it's somewhat supportable.
They were much "greener" when they went to PR and I think they only had something like a 7-10 days to practice before then. Assuming that's the case, I would imagine HCBS and staff would have lower expectations about executing certain things since they're still very new. The possible result is lowered expectations all around, which contributes to a more relaxed trip, and potentially a decent amount of "playground ball".
Fast forward to Illinois and FHS and they've got a LOT more coaching input and the expectations are higher. If you were forgiven for zigging instead of zagging in Puerto Rico, that some blunder with the season ready to start can put your butt on the bench because you should have learned your zigs and zags by now.
While this is just a wild theory, Coach's recent comments about and to Elmarko Jackson would seem to fall into this category. Elmarko is at that point where his stuck in his head, trying to hard to do everything "correctly" and Self texted him and told him to just go 100 mph and not worry about it. Self seems confident that enough of what he's been pushing has become a reflex enough for Elmarko to stop worrying about mistakes.
This could apply on a larger scale where there are several versions of the Elmarko situation on the team, and not only does he need to "just play" and trust himself a little, but maybe the same holds true for Dickensen, Timberlake and a few others too.
Again, just a guess, but at least it's somewhat supportable.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
The following user(s) said Thank You: porthawk
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