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Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
IARP vs NCAA
- USAF Jayhawk
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1 year 1 month ago #31506
by USAF Jayhawk
Couple of thoughts regarding the IARP decision. For those familiar with courts (I'm not a lawyer but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night), the difference between a criminal court and a civil court is mostly burden of proof. Criminal juries must be unanimous to convict but in a civil case the winning side needs only a majority of the jurors. Using this as an analogy, the NCAA has seemed over the years to follow the civil court model where appearance seems to be as important as facts. The IARP on the other hand seemed to require a higher burden of proof before convicting. In KU's case they stated (paraphrasing) that they could find no evidence that KU knew about the money. Note that they didn't say KU did NOT know about the money, only that it couldn't be proven. I'm often accused of splitting words, but I believe this distinction is important in how they ruled. Similarly, Kurtis Townsend was dinged about the recorded phone call...not that there was evidence about money, but that he didn't report it to the compliance office (I found that one amusing given that this was one of the items that the press and the KU haters harped on that made their guilt "obvious").
Personally, given the financial hit a coach and and an institution can take when facing charges such as this, I'm glad that the heavier burden of proof model (if in fact my hypothesis is correct) was in fact the one followed by the IARP.
Personally, given the financial hit a coach and and an institution can take when facing charges such as this, I'm glad that the heavier burden of proof model (if in fact my hypothesis is correct) was in fact the one followed by the IARP.
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1 year 1 month ago #31508
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Thankfully NIL renders the need for such $ dealings moot. (I’m sure there will be those who work to get around the strictures of the NIL rules as they evolve).
As to all the articles pointing to the Townsend phone call discussing what Zion Williamson was asking for, there is no evidence adidas paid anything to Williamson. Williamson never came to KU, he went to Duke, who “obviously” didn’t pay him anything (but the FBI wasn’t wiretapping Nike calls, so there’s no evidence, so Duke was not charged). There *is* testimony a Maryland booster paid DeSousa’s guardian to get DeSousa to go to College Park. Yet as with Duke, not a single charge was levied against Maryland.
Based on the evidence Townsend was fined for never reporting that conversation, which in and of itself was a violation per the then NCAA rules. There is no evidence Townsend knew of or was involved in any actual adidas payments to Williamson, so he wasn’t fined for that.
Same for the other two “student-athlete#s” the decision details. Nothing came of those investigations. Only “student-athlete#1” stuck.
In the vast ocean of NCAA violations for payments to players or their families or their guardians, it really does come down to the NCAA picking which programs it wanted to attack… and then personifying the role of overzealous prosecutors who lost their case in court because they went after “murder 1” charges instead of manslaughter.
It does bother me that people say Kansas walked away without any real penalties. First, just having the case looming over the program for 5+ years like a sword of Damocles significantly hurt recruiting. Just look at how the recruiting rankings for Kansas fell during the years since the FBI case and the NCAA allegations filing. It has only been recently where those rankings returned to their pre-case levels as it became likely that Kansas would not be facing a postseason ban (as indicated by the prior IARP decisions regarding other charged programs).
Second, there were the self-imposed penalties (games suspended, scholarships lost, recruiting restrictions) by Kansas that the IARP accepted as adequate for the minor violations Kansas concurred occurred.
Finally, losing those 15 vacated wins and the related titles and records are significant, especially losing them for using a player who was academically eligible, played only as he was declared eligible at the time by the NCAA, and who was benched when the NCAA later said he wasn’t eligible. This isn’t a Derrick Rose case, who was never academically eligible to play. This wasn’t a “years of academic fraud and other violations” case like the 2015 decision that penalized Syracuse with fines, suspensions and 101 vacated wins (yet stopped short of taking its 2003 title — and resulted in almost no subsequent media teeth gnashing).
This was “oh, now there is evidence of a small payment, so we are declaring him ineligible now and oh, also retroactively.” $2500 — which Silvio never received and which his guardian never used for the extra courses Silvio took and passed to be able to play in Spring 2018 — is chump change which should have at best resulted in Silvio sitting for a month, not being declared ineligible for the whole term. And it certainly should not have rendered him ineligible for the following year on top of later being retroactively declared ineligible for Spring 2018. With academics you are either eligible at that time or you aren’t. With $ the NCAA has (way too much, in retrospect) latitude to determine when and how long to declare a player ineligible. DeSousa sitting for a whole year should have been enough. They should have left Spring 2018 alone.
My opinion? The IARP took the Spring 2018 wins away — and Kansas accepted this action — in an effort to end the case while saving some face for the NCAA in this fiasco.
Also in my opinion, it didn’t work. Witness the focus in sports news media and social media on this decision being a major failure for the NCAA, while the KU haters continue with their wailing and gnashing of teeth.
As to all the articles pointing to the Townsend phone call discussing what Zion Williamson was asking for, there is no evidence adidas paid anything to Williamson. Williamson never came to KU, he went to Duke, who “obviously” didn’t pay him anything (but the FBI wasn’t wiretapping Nike calls, so there’s no evidence, so Duke was not charged). There *is* testimony a Maryland booster paid DeSousa’s guardian to get DeSousa to go to College Park. Yet as with Duke, not a single charge was levied against Maryland.
Based on the evidence Townsend was fined for never reporting that conversation, which in and of itself was a violation per the then NCAA rules. There is no evidence Townsend knew of or was involved in any actual adidas payments to Williamson, so he wasn’t fined for that.
Same for the other two “student-athlete#s” the decision details. Nothing came of those investigations. Only “student-athlete#1” stuck.
In the vast ocean of NCAA violations for payments to players or their families or their guardians, it really does come down to the NCAA picking which programs it wanted to attack… and then personifying the role of overzealous prosecutors who lost their case in court because they went after “murder 1” charges instead of manslaughter.
It does bother me that people say Kansas walked away without any real penalties. First, just having the case looming over the program for 5+ years like a sword of Damocles significantly hurt recruiting. Just look at how the recruiting rankings for Kansas fell during the years since the FBI case and the NCAA allegations filing. It has only been recently where those rankings returned to their pre-case levels as it became likely that Kansas would not be facing a postseason ban (as indicated by the prior IARP decisions regarding other charged programs).
Second, there were the self-imposed penalties (games suspended, scholarships lost, recruiting restrictions) by Kansas that the IARP accepted as adequate for the minor violations Kansas concurred occurred.
Finally, losing those 15 vacated wins and the related titles and records are significant, especially losing them for using a player who was academically eligible, played only as he was declared eligible at the time by the NCAA, and who was benched when the NCAA later said he wasn’t eligible. This isn’t a Derrick Rose case, who was never academically eligible to play. This wasn’t a “years of academic fraud and other violations” case like the 2015 decision that penalized Syracuse with fines, suspensions and 101 vacated wins (yet stopped short of taking its 2003 title — and resulted in almost no subsequent media teeth gnashing).
This was “oh, now there is evidence of a small payment, so we are declaring him ineligible now and oh, also retroactively.” $2500 — which Silvio never received and which his guardian never used for the extra courses Silvio took and passed to be able to play in Spring 2018 — is chump change which should have at best resulted in Silvio sitting for a month, not being declared ineligible for the whole term. And it certainly should not have rendered him ineligible for the following year on top of later being retroactively declared ineligible for Spring 2018. With academics you are either eligible at that time or you aren’t. With $ the NCAA has (way too much, in retrospect) latitude to determine when and how long to declare a player ineligible. DeSousa sitting for a whole year should have been enough. They should have left Spring 2018 alone.
My opinion? The IARP took the Spring 2018 wins away — and Kansas accepted this action — in an effort to end the case while saving some face for the NCAA in this fiasco.
Also in my opinion, it didn’t work. Witness the focus in sports news media and social media on this decision being a major failure for the NCAA, while the KU haters continue with their wailing and gnashing of teeth.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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1 year 1 month ago #31509
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Let me add — yes, I’m sure that our coaches knew and know that payments happen. Not naive. But having knowledge of and/or participating in specific payments — I’m also pretty sure our coaches are smart enough to not get caught in that trap if at all possible.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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- AZhawk87
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1 year 1 month ago #31513
by AZhawk87
Glad it's over.
To me it was more about watching how random the NCAA enforcement system was/is. Some schools got hammered, while most blue bloods escaped with wrist slaps. And in this case KU got hammered with a six year process that impacted recruiting, then got off with wins being revoked - which is the most ridiculous of all punishments. Pretending like something didn't actually happen, and giving nothing back to the schools we beat, who wouldn't take the wins anyway if they were given to them now. Stupid.
The thing that always gets me though is the blaming of the NCAA, when in fact the NCAA is nothing more than the schools that it is regulating and enforcing rules against. The board of the NCAA is all college presidents, so if the colleges have a problem with NCAA enforcement, then they have the absolute power to fix it. I surmise that the system is working just fine for everything other than FB and BB, and that 90% of the non-blueblood schools are fine with the bluebloods getting in trouble occasionally.
With NIL and recent changes, it all needs to be revisited, or enforcement is impossible.
Let's move forward, and hope our BB team steps up and gives us all reasons to talk about anything but the past six year NCAA process.
To me it was more about watching how random the NCAA enforcement system was/is. Some schools got hammered, while most blue bloods escaped with wrist slaps. And in this case KU got hammered with a six year process that impacted recruiting, then got off with wins being revoked - which is the most ridiculous of all punishments. Pretending like something didn't actually happen, and giving nothing back to the schools we beat, who wouldn't take the wins anyway if they were given to them now. Stupid.
The thing that always gets me though is the blaming of the NCAA, when in fact the NCAA is nothing more than the schools that it is regulating and enforcing rules against. The board of the NCAA is all college presidents, so if the colleges have a problem with NCAA enforcement, then they have the absolute power to fix it. I surmise that the system is working just fine for everything other than FB and BB, and that 90% of the non-blueblood schools are fine with the bluebloods getting in trouble occasionally.
With NIL and recent changes, it all needs to be revisited, or enforcement is impossible.
Let's move forward, and hope our BB team steps up and gives us all reasons to talk about anything but the past six year NCAA process.
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