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Rock Chalk Talk: Basketball
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
The NCAA case against KANSAS after FBI trial updated @2023-04-21
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2 years 7 months ago - 1 year 7 months ago #29128
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
ORIGIN POST created 2022-04-09
The OP contains the timeline and related commentary as of that date.
Subsequent news will be linked in the comments that follow
2019-9-23 KANSAS receives Notice of Allegations from NCAA (JayhawkSlant link)
Let me know If these JayhawkSlant links are behind the firewall. If so, I will publish them here with full citation for the record and your perusal.
2019-09-24 NCAA's allegations will become another hit to Kansas recruiting by Eric Bossi, Rivals National Recruiting analyst
Self on the allegations:
Self didn’t exactly hold back either.
"In its haste and attempt to regain control, the enforcement staff has created a false narrative regarding me and our basketball program. The narrative is based on innuendo, half-truths, misimpressions and mischaracterizations. In reality, we all know there is only one version of the truth. The truth is based on verifiable facts, and I am confident the facts we will demonstrate in our case will expose the inaccuracies of the enforcement staff's narrative."
2020-05-07 KU Public Affairs - Notice of Allegations - NCAA Amended Notice of Allegations all 149 pages of it, plus the links to other documents if you so desire.
2022-04-07 JayhawkSlant commentary by cwobrien11 (behind firewall)
(Speaking to the likelhood of Self getting suspended for a year - HE)
Boeheim got a 9 game suspension at Syracuse...and there was a lot more to it, it lasted a lot longer, and there were a lot more people involved. That stuff involved paying players through a third party LLC in addition to a lot of extra benefits, academic fraud, failure to apply a university-mandated drug testing program, and a whole lot more. That s*** lasted the better part of a decade. Syracuse didn't even really challenge the facts of it.
2022-04-07 JayhawkSlant commentary by 71JayhawkDave (behind firewall)
This is an administrative process, not even a civil or criminal one, and the bar for "guilt" is "more likely than not". So that is bothersome.
That said, I have some experience with administrative hearings and judgments, and read through every page of KU's law firm response to the allegations (I didn't read through HCBS's response, assuming it was essentially identical). IMHO, the law firm eviscerated the NCAA allegations, including to reference in-house conversations immediately after the wiretapped conversations and texts, and those in-house and contemporaneous coversations support KU's position that no wrong-doing occurred by HCBS, et al. In other words, when those happened, no one had any reason to believe they needed to "cover" themselves.
To take one "episode", DeSousa's guardian attested to not knowing the $2,500 was even coming and when he contacted the Adidas sleazeball about it, he basically said he was sure the guardian knew what to do, or words to that effect. The guardian said he kept, I believe, $500 or so and gave the rest to charity.
IMHO Self's, and the U's, adamant public denials of violations combined with KU's response, make it highly unlikely that the NCAA will issue any significant punishment. Any finding of fault would seem at great risk to be overturned based on being arbitrary and not supported by facts in evidence. [Emphasis mine - HE] (In one admin case I participated in, the guilt finding was thrown out because it relied on what might have happened vs what could be conclusively shown.) I would expect both KU and HCBS to sue including to demand an immediate injunction. I don't think the NCAA wants another NIL-like embarrassment, but also KU wants this to go away. So I'd bet that behind the scenes there's a negotiation going on whereby KU and HCBS et al admit no guilt but agree to HCBS being held out of practice for some time period or maybe not coaching some number of games at season start, or something similar. Self may be reluctant to agree even to something like that, he certainly presents himself that way, but he also could recognize that a wrist slap in face of allegation of five, Level 1 infractions, would be a clearcut victory.
Finally, given that all this has been brought about by illicit behavior of Adidas employees, it wouldn't be surprising
if there's some "hold harmless" language floating around whereby much of KU's legal expenses are paid by Adidas.
2022-04-07 JayhawkSlant commentary by 71JayhawkDave (behind firewall)
General process is can't pursue relief in court until letting the administrative process run its course. So no court is likely to accept it until all recourse within NCAA has occurred. But there've been instances wherein NCAA final decision was reversed or blocked in court filing. Relief can be granted if the member had no choice/was coerced, the process violated the org's own policies (very often the case), or the policies were in themselves illegal or unenforceable.
———END OF TRANSCRIPTS———
I have said since the beginning, given that the court case they are pulling their evidence from found that KU and other schools were "victims", that the NCAA had nothing to stand on and had overreached. In my assessment the time it is taking to resolve this deals with the reality that the IARP accurately assessed the battlefield and realized that the NCAA has essentially blown it. There will be hell to pay for the NCAA if this ever goes to court, and any case would not involve KU alone (I think there is more than one reason why K has chosen to retire now). He has not identified himself as an attorney, but it's pretty clear 71JayhawkDave is one, and I must say that his assessment bodes well for KU IMO.
The OP contains the timeline and related commentary as of that date.
Subsequent news will be linked in the comments that follow
2019-9-23 KANSAS receives Notice of Allegations from NCAA (JayhawkSlant link)
Let me know If these JayhawkSlant links are behind the firewall. If so, I will publish them here with full citation for the record and your perusal.
2019-09-24 NCAA's allegations will become another hit to Kansas recruiting by Eric Bossi, Rivals National Recruiting analyst
Self on the allegations:
Self didn’t exactly hold back either.
"In its haste and attempt to regain control, the enforcement staff has created a false narrative regarding me and our basketball program. The narrative is based on innuendo, half-truths, misimpressions and mischaracterizations. In reality, we all know there is only one version of the truth. The truth is based on verifiable facts, and I am confident the facts we will demonstrate in our case will expose the inaccuracies of the enforcement staff's narrative."
2020-05-07 KU Public Affairs - Notice of Allegations - NCAA Amended Notice of Allegations all 149 pages of it, plus the links to other documents if you so desire.
2022-04-07 JayhawkSlant commentary by cwobrien11 (behind firewall)
(Speaking to the likelhood of Self getting suspended for a year - HE)
Boeheim got a 9 game suspension at Syracuse...and there was a lot more to it, it lasted a lot longer, and there were a lot more people involved. That stuff involved paying players through a third party LLC in addition to a lot of extra benefits, academic fraud, failure to apply a university-mandated drug testing program, and a whole lot more. That s*** lasted the better part of a decade. Syracuse didn't even really challenge the facts of it.
2022-04-07 JayhawkSlant commentary by 71JayhawkDave (behind firewall)
This is an administrative process, not even a civil or criminal one, and the bar for "guilt" is "more likely than not". So that is bothersome.
That said, I have some experience with administrative hearings and judgments, and read through every page of KU's law firm response to the allegations (I didn't read through HCBS's response, assuming it was essentially identical). IMHO, the law firm eviscerated the NCAA allegations, including to reference in-house conversations immediately after the wiretapped conversations and texts, and those in-house and contemporaneous coversations support KU's position that no wrong-doing occurred by HCBS, et al. In other words, when those happened, no one had any reason to believe they needed to "cover" themselves.
To take one "episode", DeSousa's guardian attested to not knowing the $2,500 was even coming and when he contacted the Adidas sleazeball about it, he basically said he was sure the guardian knew what to do, or words to that effect. The guardian said he kept, I believe, $500 or so and gave the rest to charity.
IMHO Self's, and the U's, adamant public denials of violations combined with KU's response, make it highly unlikely that the NCAA will issue any significant punishment. Any finding of fault would seem at great risk to be overturned based on being arbitrary and not supported by facts in evidence. [Emphasis mine - HE] (In one admin case I participated in, the guilt finding was thrown out because it relied on what might have happened vs what could be conclusively shown.) I would expect both KU and HCBS to sue including to demand an immediate injunction. I don't think the NCAA wants another NIL-like embarrassment, but also KU wants this to go away. So I'd bet that behind the scenes there's a negotiation going on whereby KU and HCBS et al admit no guilt but agree to HCBS being held out of practice for some time period or maybe not coaching some number of games at season start, or something similar. Self may be reluctant to agree even to something like that, he certainly presents himself that way, but he also could recognize that a wrist slap in face of allegation of five, Level 1 infractions, would be a clearcut victory.
Finally, given that all this has been brought about by illicit behavior of Adidas employees, it wouldn't be surprising
if there's some "hold harmless" language floating around whereby much of KU's legal expenses are paid by Adidas.
2022-04-07 JayhawkSlant commentary by 71JayhawkDave (behind firewall)
General process is can't pursue relief in court until letting the administrative process run its course. So no court is likely to accept it until all recourse within NCAA has occurred. But there've been instances wherein NCAA final decision was reversed or blocked in court filing. Relief can be granted if the member had no choice/was coerced, the process violated the org's own policies (very often the case), or the policies were in themselves illegal or unenforceable.
———END OF TRANSCRIPTS———
I have said since the beginning, given that the court case they are pulling their evidence from found that KU and other schools were "victims", that the NCAA had nothing to stand on and had overreached. In my assessment the time it is taking to resolve this deals with the reality that the IARP accurately assessed the battlefield and realized that the NCAA has essentially blown it. There will be hell to pay for the NCAA if this ever goes to court, and any case would not involve KU alone (I think there is more than one reason why K has chosen to retire now). He has not identified himself as an attorney, but it's pretty clear 71JayhawkDave is one, and I must say that his assessment bodes well for KU IMO.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Last Edit: 1 year 7 months ago by HawkErrant.
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- denster
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2 years 7 months ago #29130
by denster
I seem to remember recently an article stating that KU is having trouble with the NCAA not releasing some documents. Doesn't seem to be a very transparent investigation.
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