.@SINow has obtained the cease and desist letter that the Big 12 sent to ESPN. In it, commissioner Bob Bowlsby say… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
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Rock Chalk Talk: Basketball
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Joint OU/tu statement
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3 years 3 months ago #27318
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Another statement from Big 12 Commissioner Bob Bowlsby --
"The Big 12 Conference has learned that the University of Oklahoma and the University of Texas have submitted formal requests to the SEC to be considered for membership beginning with the 2025-26 athletic year. The events of recent days have verified that the two schools have been contemplating and planning for the transition for months and this formal application is the culmination of those processes. We are unwavering in the belief that the Big 12 provides an outstanding platform for its members’ athletic and academic success. We will face the challenges head-on, and we have confidence that the Big 12 will continue to be a vibrant and successful entity in the near term and into the foreseeable future."
link
Anyone else finding analogies to Captain Edward Smith of Titanic infamy?
Or at the very least to the band playing on as the ship was sinking?
"The Big 12 Conference has learned that the University of Oklahoma and the University of Texas have submitted formal requests to the SEC to be considered for membership beginning with the 2025-26 athletic year. The events of recent days have verified that the two schools have been contemplating and planning for the transition for months and this formal application is the culmination of those processes. We are unwavering in the belief that the Big 12 provides an outstanding platform for its members’ athletic and academic success. We will face the challenges head-on, and we have confidence that the Big 12 will continue to be a vibrant and successful entity in the near term and into the foreseeable future."
link
Anyone else finding analogies to Captain Edward Smith of Titanic infamy?
Or at the very least to the band playing on as the ship was sinking?
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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3 years 3 months ago #27320
by CorpusJayhawk
Don't worry about the mules, just load the wagon!!
The pontificates and the prognosticators are coming out of the woodwork with this OU/UT announcement. It has been fun reading all the views. Some are pretty credible and others probably not so much. Like the rest of you, after reading 20, 30, 40 various articles an such, you start to see some trends that seem to be pretty reasonable and common sense. While everything at this point is possible, here is my attempt to consolidate the various pontification and prognostications.
1. The Big 12 is sayonara, toast, kaput, extinct, el fin, yesterdays news, All the talk of the remaining 8 teams locking arms, singing kumbaya and adding the next great powerhouse teams is just romantic daydreaming of past greatness. Like it or not, OU and UT provide much of the impetus for financial success of the conference. That may not sit well for any fan of the other 8 schools but it is just a fact of life in 2021. There may be a delay in the dissolution until as late as 2025 but it (the dissolution of the Big 12) is a fait accompli.
2. The end of the Big 12 will end sooner than later. It has been very interesting to read all the takes on their tactics and strategies of the various players in this tableau as they seek to gain the upper hand of leverage in the negotiations. But after reading a number of takes on all these machinations, it seems reasonably clear at this point that no one, not one of the players in this drama have much to gain by dragging it out. The so called “ironclad” rights of the conference over the TV rights of all the member schools is causing a legion of possible negotiation scenarios. But all parties realize, this needs to a shorter term solution. If I had to put odds on it, I would bet the Big 12 is gone by the start of the 2022 season and certainly by the 2023 season.
3. While the AAC is going to try to leverage this to slide into the place of the Big 12 as the 5th Power 5 conference, it seems somewhat clear at this point that we are moving to the Power 4 conferences. These Power 4 conferences are going to attempt to lock up every major recruiting area and every major and even minor TV market. There will just basically be nothing left for the AAC to break into a level par with what the Power 4 will control.
4. The NCAA is on the same sinking boat as the Big 12. I do not see a viable path forward for the NCAA. Things like setting scholarship limits, recruiting limitations, coaching limitations, are no longer necessary. The only hope the NCAA had (and this was even a Hail Mary) was to lead a bold charge to set a clear and universally accepted pattern for the new NIL issue. When the NCAA basically dropped the ball (or more accurately it went right through their hands, hit them in the face and fell to the ground) on the NIL issue, it was time to buy the casket. They are history. Look for the SEC to lead the way in forming their own guidelines on issues formally in the venue of the NCAA. Incidentally, no one will show up to the funeral for the NCAA. No one will be sad to see them go.
5. The 8 remaining Big 12 schools are actively seeking where to land. They slightly attractive gambit of forcing UT and OU to cough up mega dollars to exit early sounds like a little poetic justice, but it is utterly stupid in the longer term interests of the other 8 schools. There are several reasons for this. The other Power 4 conferences, despite the maneuvering by the PAC 12 commissioner, need to move judiciously to compete with the new world order being set by the SEC. They will all be looking to expand their footprint for TV, increasing their revenue base and exposure and even critical mass for the new rules that will be coming down the pike. Each of the ACC, Big Ten and PAC-12 will be seeking out schools to strengthen their brand and viability. They may even try to poach each other. As they say, it’s best to have a job when you are looking for a job. Basically, the 8 Big 12 schools are now out of work looking for a job . That is a much greater sense of urgency than say a Florida St, Clemson, or someone else that may want to change conferences but doesn’t have to. The Big 12 schools would be foolish not to line up a new home as quickly as possible.
6. I have read that KU will be super coveted and I have read where they are all but destined to end up in the Mountain West or some such conference. I am obviously biased but KU seems to have more positives than negatives. Especially since the negatives are potentially transitory. I have read reasonable pontification where KU ends up in the Big Ten, the ACC and the PAC-12 as well as the Mountain West. All four seem like better than zero probabilities at this point. It seems like the Big 10 may be top of the heap. I will watch this closely as more information comes available. But like point 5 above, what seems clear is KU will be super actively pushing to find a home. A revamped Big 12 is another possibility but seems to me to be very near a zero probability. As a KU fan about the only sure thing is that life over the next couple years is going to be radically different.
7. Less universalism. One intersecting take I have read is that with the NCAA gone and 4 power conferences with 16 (or more) teams, there will be much less inter conference interaction. It used to be teams played 8 conference football games and 16-18 in basketball. Some have argued that that will increase to as many as 11 for football and 24 for basketball. This seems to be in KU’s favor slightly. One of the key sources for income in basketball is the key matchups with superpower teams. A team like KU would be a goldmine for this. The big losers (and I mean really big losers) in this new format old be anyone outside the Power 4 conferences. It destroys a big source of income for non power conference teams. This also serves KU since it would actually be noice in a way for Michigan or Ohio State to have a designated victory in football against KU and freeing them up to have one of these made for TV super matchups out of conference. Plus, you could see each of the power conferences do conferences mini-tournamants kind of like the SEC vs Big 12. Only you will see all 4 Power basketball conferences (Big East included) having these multi-team inter conference series. Again, the big losers are non power conference teams. Very interesting.
8. Can Norte Dame survive as an independent?
This is certainly something to do in these funky summer months.
1. The Big 12 is sayonara, toast, kaput, extinct, el fin, yesterdays news, All the talk of the remaining 8 teams locking arms, singing kumbaya and adding the next great powerhouse teams is just romantic daydreaming of past greatness. Like it or not, OU and UT provide much of the impetus for financial success of the conference. That may not sit well for any fan of the other 8 schools but it is just a fact of life in 2021. There may be a delay in the dissolution until as late as 2025 but it (the dissolution of the Big 12) is a fait accompli.
2. The end of the Big 12 will end sooner than later. It has been very interesting to read all the takes on their tactics and strategies of the various players in this tableau as they seek to gain the upper hand of leverage in the negotiations. But after reading a number of takes on all these machinations, it seems reasonably clear at this point that no one, not one of the players in this drama have much to gain by dragging it out. The so called “ironclad” rights of the conference over the TV rights of all the member schools is causing a legion of possible negotiation scenarios. But all parties realize, this needs to a shorter term solution. If I had to put odds on it, I would bet the Big 12 is gone by the start of the 2022 season and certainly by the 2023 season.
3. While the AAC is going to try to leverage this to slide into the place of the Big 12 as the 5th Power 5 conference, it seems somewhat clear at this point that we are moving to the Power 4 conferences. These Power 4 conferences are going to attempt to lock up every major recruiting area and every major and even minor TV market. There will just basically be nothing left for the AAC to break into a level par with what the Power 4 will control.
4. The NCAA is on the same sinking boat as the Big 12. I do not see a viable path forward for the NCAA. Things like setting scholarship limits, recruiting limitations, coaching limitations, are no longer necessary. The only hope the NCAA had (and this was even a Hail Mary) was to lead a bold charge to set a clear and universally accepted pattern for the new NIL issue. When the NCAA basically dropped the ball (or more accurately it went right through their hands, hit them in the face and fell to the ground) on the NIL issue, it was time to buy the casket. They are history. Look for the SEC to lead the way in forming their own guidelines on issues formally in the venue of the NCAA. Incidentally, no one will show up to the funeral for the NCAA. No one will be sad to see them go.
5. The 8 remaining Big 12 schools are actively seeking where to land. They slightly attractive gambit of forcing UT and OU to cough up mega dollars to exit early sounds like a little poetic justice, but it is utterly stupid in the longer term interests of the other 8 schools. There are several reasons for this. The other Power 4 conferences, despite the maneuvering by the PAC 12 commissioner, need to move judiciously to compete with the new world order being set by the SEC. They will all be looking to expand their footprint for TV, increasing their revenue base and exposure and even critical mass for the new rules that will be coming down the pike. Each of the ACC, Big Ten and PAC-12 will be seeking out schools to strengthen their brand and viability. They may even try to poach each other. As they say, it’s best to have a job when you are looking for a job. Basically, the 8 Big 12 schools are now out of work looking for a job . That is a much greater sense of urgency than say a Florida St, Clemson, or someone else that may want to change conferences but doesn’t have to. The Big 12 schools would be foolish not to line up a new home as quickly as possible.
6. I have read that KU will be super coveted and I have read where they are all but destined to end up in the Mountain West or some such conference. I am obviously biased but KU seems to have more positives than negatives. Especially since the negatives are potentially transitory. I have read reasonable pontification where KU ends up in the Big Ten, the ACC and the PAC-12 as well as the Mountain West. All four seem like better than zero probabilities at this point. It seems like the Big 10 may be top of the heap. I will watch this closely as more information comes available. But like point 5 above, what seems clear is KU will be super actively pushing to find a home. A revamped Big 12 is another possibility but seems to me to be very near a zero probability. As a KU fan about the only sure thing is that life over the next couple years is going to be radically different.
7. Less universalism. One intersecting take I have read is that with the NCAA gone and 4 power conferences with 16 (or more) teams, there will be much less inter conference interaction. It used to be teams played 8 conference football games and 16-18 in basketball. Some have argued that that will increase to as many as 11 for football and 24 for basketball. This seems to be in KU’s favor slightly. One of the key sources for income in basketball is the key matchups with superpower teams. A team like KU would be a goldmine for this. The big losers (and I mean really big losers) in this new format old be anyone outside the Power 4 conferences. It destroys a big source of income for non power conference teams. This also serves KU since it would actually be noice in a way for Michigan or Ohio State to have a designated victory in football against KU and freeing them up to have one of these made for TV super matchups out of conference. Plus, you could see each of the power conferences do conferences mini-tournamants kind of like the SEC vs Big 12. Only you will see all 4 Power basketball conferences (Big East included) having these multi-team inter conference series. Again, the big losers are non power conference teams. Very interesting.
8. Can Norte Dame survive as an independent?
This is certainly something to do in these funky summer months.
Don't worry about the mules, just load the wagon!!
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #27321
by konza63
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
That is a fantastic summary of the state of play, Corpus, and I found myself nodding in agreement on every point.
Let the realigning begin, and may our beloved alma mater land in a premier conference - without any anachronistic and program-killing demands of the KS Legislature that KU and KSU must be a "package deal."
PS: I'd be curious as to your and other board members' take on whether the obvious demise of the NCAA - and the opening up of college sports athletes to profit on their names and prowess - will undercut (if not completely obviate) the infraction committee's pending decision regarding KU? It seems to me that they now have zero leverage, and that any ruling they come down with will fall like a tree in a very dense forest. Will anybody hear? Will anybody care? Especially since the entire model of college athletics is now going the way of the alleged misbehavior on KU's part? I think the timing of this would also appear to be very much in KU's favor - and should help us avoid an otherwise very untimely stain on our rep that could hurt us in seeking to move to a premier power conference. (Especially one like the Big Ten) Thoughts welcome...
Let the realigning begin, and may our beloved alma mater land in a premier conference - without any anachronistic and program-killing demands of the KS Legislature that KU and KSU must be a "package deal."
PS: I'd be curious as to your and other board members' take on whether the obvious demise of the NCAA - and the opening up of college sports athletes to profit on their names and prowess - will undercut (if not completely obviate) the infraction committee's pending decision regarding KU? It seems to me that they now have zero leverage, and that any ruling they come down with will fall like a tree in a very dense forest. Will anybody hear? Will anybody care? Especially since the entire model of college athletics is now going the way of the alleged misbehavior on KU's part? I think the timing of this would also appear to be very much in KU's favor - and should help us avoid an otherwise very untimely stain on our rep that could hurt us in seeking to move to a premier power conference. (Especially one like the Big Ten) Thoughts welcome...
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Last Edit: 3 years 3 months ago by konza63.
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3 years 3 months ago #27322
by Kong
Visualize Whirled Peas
This is why I have been wanting a decent football team for ages. Without it, we are going hat in hand begging to be included.
Re-alignment is all about football revenue. Why? Because the NCAA makes money off of basketball revenue, but the schools make a lot off of football revenue.
The NCAA absolutely shot itself by not getting ahead of the NIL curve and will suffer for it. This re-alignment may be the beginning of the end for it.
I see the ACC growing and the SEC growing. With the potential of the two to merge and say so long NCAA.
The Big 10 needs to grow, but it doesn't have to be in a hurry. Yes they would like AAU schools, but they have survived with Nebraska losing accreditation. OSU isn't an AAU school, but they have a winning football program that recruits in the same areas as OU so they are desirable. The Big 10 has to increase its foot print to stay ahead of the SEC so I see that as a plus for KU. Our basketball will carry some weight, but if the NCAA is doomed, then the tournament will need to be replaced and will basketball have the same stature as it currently has? That is a gamble, but probably a good one. You know the ACC is counting on it as well.
I don't see us in the PAC 12, but I could see the Big 10 and PAC 12 looking to link up if the ACC and SEC does, so going to the PAC 12 would be the end of everything, just a longer harder road for KU.
In the end conference rivalries are dead for the most part and it is all a money grab.
One humorous aspect of all of this is that MOO wanted away from UT soooooooo bad and they may now wind up in the same pod as UT and OU and get its butt handed to them on a regular basis by those very teams they ran away from.
Re-alignment is all about football revenue. Why? Because the NCAA makes money off of basketball revenue, but the schools make a lot off of football revenue.
The NCAA absolutely shot itself by not getting ahead of the NIL curve and will suffer for it. This re-alignment may be the beginning of the end for it.
I see the ACC growing and the SEC growing. With the potential of the two to merge and say so long NCAA.
The Big 10 needs to grow, but it doesn't have to be in a hurry. Yes they would like AAU schools, but they have survived with Nebraska losing accreditation. OSU isn't an AAU school, but they have a winning football program that recruits in the same areas as OU so they are desirable. The Big 10 has to increase its foot print to stay ahead of the SEC so I see that as a plus for KU. Our basketball will carry some weight, but if the NCAA is doomed, then the tournament will need to be replaced and will basketball have the same stature as it currently has? That is a gamble, but probably a good one. You know the ACC is counting on it as well.
I don't see us in the PAC 12, but I could see the Big 10 and PAC 12 looking to link up if the ACC and SEC does, so going to the PAC 12 would be the end of everything, just a longer harder road for KU.
In the end conference rivalries are dead for the most part and it is all a money grab.
One humorous aspect of all of this is that MOO wanted away from UT soooooooo bad and they may now wind up in the same pod as UT and OU and get its butt handed to them on a regular basis by those very teams they ran away from.
Visualize Whirled Peas
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3 years 3 months ago #27326
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
An excerpt from Jon Kirby’s post on JayhawkSlant this morning:
There are some rumblings that the Big 10 is having some private talks with a very small group about what they should do if this causes movement with other conferences. I was told that [commissioner] Kevin Warren hasn't been big on realignment but that could change. I was also told they have aggressive presidents in his conference and in the end that is who he will answer to.
All I can say is I had a conversation with someone who is connected to one of the three most powerful guys in the Big 10. And this person told me if this realignment starts heating up the Big 10 will not sit back and watch their best targets get poached and then either get left out in the cold or take schools they don't want.”
There are some rumblings that the Big 10 is having some private talks with a very small group about what they should do if this causes movement with other conferences. I was told that [commissioner] Kevin Warren hasn't been big on realignment but that could change. I was also told they have aggressive presidents in his conference and in the end that is who he will answer to.
All I can say is I had a conversation with someone who is connected to one of the three most powerful guys in the Big 10. And this person told me if this realignment starts heating up the Big 10 will not sit back and watch their best targets get poached and then either get left out in the cold or take schools they don't want.”
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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3 years 3 months ago #27327
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Placating pablum follows.
I really hope KU makes no comments unless Girod and Goff actually have something to say.
From 247Sports.com
KSU statement:
After more than four days of silence, Kansas State University president Richard Myers and athletics director Gene Taylor issued a joint statement Monday afternoon that may be intended to calm a fan base that is growing increasingly nervous with the planned departure of Oklahoma and Texas from the Big 12.
The statement was short and to the point:
"With the recent announcement of two of our institutions electing to depart the conference following the 2024-25 season, Kansas State University and the additional seven members of the Big 12 Conference are eager to collaborate and position ourselves for continued success. We have terrific leadership at the conference, university and state board of regents levels, and our fans should know that every effort is being made to put Kansas State and the Big 12 Conference in the best position moving forward."
247sports.com/college/kansas-state/Artic...alignment-168313169/
I really hope KU makes no comments unless Girod and Goff actually have something to say.
From 247Sports.com
KSU statement:
After more than four days of silence, Kansas State University president Richard Myers and athletics director Gene Taylor issued a joint statement Monday afternoon that may be intended to calm a fan base that is growing increasingly nervous with the planned departure of Oklahoma and Texas from the Big 12.
The statement was short and to the point:
"With the recent announcement of two of our institutions electing to depart the conference following the 2024-25 season, Kansas State University and the additional seven members of the Big 12 Conference are eager to collaborate and position ourselves for continued success. We have terrific leadership at the conference, university and state board of regents levels, and our fans should know that every effort is being made to put Kansas State and the Big 12 Conference in the best position moving forward."
247sports.com/college/kansas-state/Artic...alignment-168313169/
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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3 years 3 months ago #27328
by Kong
Visualize Whirled Peas
going back to football driving everything and it being an albatross around KUs neck, here is one take on whether or not KU is a fit for the Big 10. Just one person opinion and he may or may not be a fool, but we have to acknowledge that this opinion is more prevalent then we may care to believe
Form this opinion piece saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/b...tJo9T9UtePhkqmQCH5Qw
Kansas: Not a fit
Aside from geography, I don’t understand linking Kansas to the Big Ten. It is already the worst Power 5 football program in the country, and it’s mired in scandal with sanctions possibly coming soon. Before Les Miles came to town, the Jayhawks were getting less than fewer than 20,000 fans per home game. That’s insane for a Big 12 school. Michigan, Ohio State and Penn State get 5 times the fans!
This move would be purely a basketball move, which would be a mistake in my opinion. If the Big Ten wants basketball, it can get Baylor without the brutal football program that the Jayhawks would bring.
It should be noted, 247Sports refuted that initial report that Kansas set up a call with the Big Ten.
Form this opinion piece saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/b...tJo9T9UtePhkqmQCH5Qw
Kansas: Not a fit
Aside from geography, I don’t understand linking Kansas to the Big Ten. It is already the worst Power 5 football program in the country, and it’s mired in scandal with sanctions possibly coming soon. Before Les Miles came to town, the Jayhawks were getting less than fewer than 20,000 fans per home game. That’s insane for a Big 12 school. Michigan, Ohio State and Penn State get 5 times the fans!
This move would be purely a basketball move, which would be a mistake in my opinion. If the Big Ten wants basketball, it can get Baylor without the brutal football program that the Jayhawks would bring.
It should be noted, 247Sports refuted that initial report that Kansas set up a call with the Big Ten.
Visualize Whirled Peas
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #27329
by HawkErrant
First to the phone call refutation... I'm not worried about it. JayhawkSlant's Jon Kirby (JK) noted that none -- NONE -- of his sources at KU or his B1G contacts (and he has built up a lot of them over the years) are saying anything about KU- B1G discussions right now, and rightfully so. You may recall that when NU got it's B1G invite it came out of the blue for everybody, especially mOO. Expect more of the same from the B1G, and I would think KU has learned from the lesson of mOO, who were quite vocal about what they were doing and how they fit the B1G (which many at the time felt ticked off some B1G bigwigs).
As to the argument of the ill-informed you linked us to, I present this analysis.
This was posted by cwobrien11 on JayhawkSlant’s Memorial Stadium Slant Suite
kansas.forums.rivals.com/threads/latest-.../page-2#post-1875332 (if you are a Slant member)
==========
It’s been said a thousand times, but it is worth repeating again.
Realignment isn’t about football. It was never about football. It’s never going to be about football. It is, was, and always will be about money. People always conflate the two but they are NOT one and the same.
Things that increase conference money:
-Elite football programs with massive followings that drive up T1 ratings…and T1 contracts
-New, large population states that will move cable households into geographic footprint of a conference network which raises the value of subscription fees.
Putting in a brand spanking new stadium does literally nothing to improve positioning when it comes to realignment. If it did, Baylor and TCU would be at the top of the must-have lists because they have stadiums that are less than 10 years old.
Winning at a good clip isn’t even enough. Anyone with half an eye could say that with the right investment, ISU is a consistent upper half conference team. They’re not being hounded by offers. Oklahoma St. has done consistently well in both football and basketball and they’re not being courted. You need elite with a large following. Unless KU pulled an Oregon under the first 10 years of Belotti [wouldn't that be nice? - HE], it wouldn’t do much.
Just look at the teams that have been added in recent years:
ACC
-Syracuse-New large population state in geographic footprint
-Pitt-New large population state in geographic footprint
B1G
Nebraska-Large national following; new state (small, but still new) in geographic footprint [1M less people than KANSAS in 2010 and in 2020 - HE].
Rutgers-New large population state in geographic footprint
Maryland-New large population state in geographic footprint
SEC
A&M-Large national following; new large population state in geographic footprint
Mizzou-New large (relatively speaking) population state in geographic footprint [2.1 x KANSAS -HE]
OU-Large national following; new state (medium sized, but still new) in geographic footprint [1.3 x KANSAS -HE]
Texas-Large national following
Pac-12
Colorado-New large population state in geographic footprint (large compared to stuff in the western part of the country) [just under 2 x KANSAS -HE]
Utah-New large population state in geographic footprint (large compared to stuff in the western part of the country) [334K more people than KANSAS -HE]
Nebraska and Texas are the only two that basically got seats based on their large national following…and Nebraska move new subs into geographic footprint. You could say about the same for OU and A&M…large following but new in-market states.
Football isn’t driving the ship. Money is…and by extension, state population is driving the money.
==========
So let's follow cwobrien11's analysis.
First for the record I will list, then set aside all the other factors to be considered when looking at KU, then address cwobrien11's criteria.
KANSAS Pros we will put on the table as decor and then ignore...
1. AAU status, research $ and academics
2. National Cancer Institute certification
3. Culture & administration (JK has noted hearing from several of his B1G contacts the belief that KU finally has it's act together with the hiring of Travis Goff as AD and Lance Leipold as KUFB HC.)
4. Facilities -- all the upgrades done in the last 10 years, to include the new Rock Chalk Park with it's International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) recognized Class I Certified track, the 5th on United States soil, and one of only 105 in the entire world. (The other US tracks are Oregon, Auburn and Arkansas at the collegiate level, and the surface at Icahn Stadium in New York),
NOW, using cwo's criteria...
Why KU may appeal to the B1G especially, but also the ACC and Pac-12.
1. A footprint in a new state of 2.94M people (unfortunately just #38 in population, but still 1M more people than Nebraska) contiguous to the current geographic footprint (borders Nebraska). Not a huge market, even if all were dedicated to KU, which it isn't, but still far from the smallest -- and would get a lot of eyes in the KCMO *and* St. Louis regions which would be above and beyond the Kansas #s. EDIT: PLUS - per former ESPN president John Skipper, adding a new state, regardless of size, means huge distributorship fees for conference cable distribution in a new state.
2. A national brand in one of the Top 5 programs in college hoops history (remember, it's about $ not just FB -- and I thought I read somewhere that only Louisville has a better hoops money engine than KU).
3. An overall athletic program that, even with it's moribund football program (which is still KU's biggest money engine), was #28 in the NCAA in Earnings and #9 in Profit/Loss for fiscal year 2018-19 (the last full year before COVID-19).
Footprint, new state ($$$) for the conference, and a national (albeit not FB) brand to drive viewing.
CONS to consider
1. The aforementioned moribund football program. HOWEVER, the hiring of Lance Leipold as new HC may be a huge factor to consider here. He was recently ranked as one of the top 20 D1 CFB coaches (#9 in one recent ranking) , and if he can resurrect KUFB, the "pot" thickens. Mo money.
2. The NCAA Sword of Damocles. BUT - IMO - the longer a decision is delayed -- and with the recent 9-0 Supreme Court decision, NCAA chief Emmert's speech about "decentralizing" college sports, the NIL and the more seismic activity we see on the conference landscape (which may result in shaking the NCAA out of existence) -- the better the final result for KU. I personally cannot see how they can act on Kurtis Townsend for mere talk (they have no evidence of anything else) when Zion Williamson went to Duke, not KU (and I am forever grateful for that). The whole "shoe company as booster" ploy will backfire in the NCAA's face if they rely upon that (I am convinced there will be legal consequences if they do, and thankfully Jeff Long is GONE!). And KU has it's track record of sitting people when issues arise and cooperating with the NCAA. (In fact, I believe that the NCAA has been shocked by KU saying NO to all charges, we have rolled over so often in the past.) Others less informed and biased (there are a lot of KU haters as well as fans out there) will have different opinions, but I will not be at all surprised if KU ends up following on the tracks that UNC escaped on (no real proof the program did anything wrong, and again thank the heavens Jeff Long is gone!) I just cannot see the NCAA biting that bullet when they know they are on their way out of business.
I think KU will fit quite well should the B1G especially (my preference) or the ACC or even the PAC-12 decide to expand.
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Kong wrote: going back to football driving everything and it being an albatross around KUs neck, here is one take on whether or not KU is a fit for the Big 10. Just one person opinion and he may or may not be a fool, but we have to acknowledge that this opinion is more prevalent then we may care to believe
Form this opinion piece saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/b...tJo9T9UtePhkqmQCH5Qw
Kansas: Not a fit
Aside from geography, I don’t understand linking Kansas to the Big Ten. It is already the worst Power 5 football program in the country, and it’s mired in scandal with sanctions possibly coming soon. Before Les Miles came to town, the Jayhawks were getting less than fewer than 20,000 fans per home game. That’s insane for a Big 12 school. Michigan, Ohio State and Penn State get 5 times the fans!
This move would be purely a basketball move, which would be a mistake in my opinion. If the Big Ten wants basketball, it can get Baylor without the brutal football program that the Jayhawks would bring.
It should be noted, 247Sports refuted that initial report that Kansas set up a call with the Big Ten.
First to the phone call refutation... I'm not worried about it. JayhawkSlant's Jon Kirby (JK) noted that none -- NONE -- of his sources at KU or his B1G contacts (and he has built up a lot of them over the years) are saying anything about KU- B1G discussions right now, and rightfully so. You may recall that when NU got it's B1G invite it came out of the blue for everybody, especially mOO. Expect more of the same from the B1G, and I would think KU has learned from the lesson of mOO, who were quite vocal about what they were doing and how they fit the B1G (which many at the time felt ticked off some B1G bigwigs).
As to the argument of the ill-informed you linked us to, I present this analysis.
This was posted by cwobrien11 on JayhawkSlant’s Memorial Stadium Slant Suite
kansas.forums.rivals.com/threads/latest-.../page-2#post-1875332 (if you are a Slant member)
==========
It’s been said a thousand times, but it is worth repeating again.
Realignment isn’t about football. It was never about football. It’s never going to be about football. It is, was, and always will be about money. People always conflate the two but they are NOT one and the same.
Things that increase conference money:
-Elite football programs with massive followings that drive up T1 ratings…and T1 contracts
-New, large population states that will move cable households into geographic footprint of a conference network which raises the value of subscription fees.
Putting in a brand spanking new stadium does literally nothing to improve positioning when it comes to realignment. If it did, Baylor and TCU would be at the top of the must-have lists because they have stadiums that are less than 10 years old.
Winning at a good clip isn’t even enough. Anyone with half an eye could say that with the right investment, ISU is a consistent upper half conference team. They’re not being hounded by offers. Oklahoma St. has done consistently well in both football and basketball and they’re not being courted. You need elite with a large following. Unless KU pulled an Oregon under the first 10 years of Belotti [wouldn't that be nice? - HE], it wouldn’t do much.
Just look at the teams that have been added in recent years:
ACC
-Syracuse-New large population state in geographic footprint
-Pitt-New large population state in geographic footprint
B1G
Nebraska-Large national following; new state (small, but still new) in geographic footprint [1M less people than KANSAS in 2010 and in 2020 - HE].
Rutgers-New large population state in geographic footprint
Maryland-New large population state in geographic footprint
SEC
A&M-Large national following; new large population state in geographic footprint
Mizzou-New large (relatively speaking) population state in geographic footprint [2.1 x KANSAS -HE]
OU-Large national following; new state (medium sized, but still new) in geographic footprint [1.3 x KANSAS -HE]
Texas-Large national following
Pac-12
Colorado-New large population state in geographic footprint (large compared to stuff in the western part of the country) [just under 2 x KANSAS -HE]
Utah-New large population state in geographic footprint (large compared to stuff in the western part of the country) [334K more people than KANSAS -HE]
Nebraska and Texas are the only two that basically got seats based on their large national following…and Nebraska move new subs into geographic footprint. You could say about the same for OU and A&M…large following but new in-market states.
Football isn’t driving the ship. Money is…and by extension, state population is driving the money.
==========
So let's follow cwobrien11's analysis.
First for the record I will list, then set aside all the other factors to be considered when looking at KU, then address cwobrien11's criteria.
KANSAS Pros we will put on the table as decor and then ignore...
1. AAU status, research $ and academics
2. National Cancer Institute certification
3. Culture & administration (JK has noted hearing from several of his B1G contacts the belief that KU finally has it's act together with the hiring of Travis Goff as AD and Lance Leipold as KUFB HC.)
4. Facilities -- all the upgrades done in the last 10 years, to include the new Rock Chalk Park with it's International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) recognized Class I Certified track, the 5th on United States soil, and one of only 105 in the entire world. (The other US tracks are Oregon, Auburn and Arkansas at the collegiate level, and the surface at Icahn Stadium in New York),
NOW, using cwo's criteria...
Why KU may appeal to the B1G especially, but also the ACC and Pac-12.
1. A footprint in a new state of 2.94M people (unfortunately just #38 in population, but still 1M more people than Nebraska) contiguous to the current geographic footprint (borders Nebraska). Not a huge market, even if all were dedicated to KU, which it isn't, but still far from the smallest -- and would get a lot of eyes in the KCMO *and* St. Louis regions which would be above and beyond the Kansas #s. EDIT: PLUS - per former ESPN president John Skipper, adding a new state, regardless of size, means huge distributorship fees for conference cable distribution in a new state.
2. A national brand in one of the Top 5 programs in college hoops history (remember, it's about $ not just FB -- and I thought I read somewhere that only Louisville has a better hoops money engine than KU).
3. An overall athletic program that, even with it's moribund football program (which is still KU's biggest money engine), was #28 in the NCAA in Earnings and #9 in Profit/Loss for fiscal year 2018-19 (the last full year before COVID-19).
Footprint, new state ($$$) for the conference, and a national (albeit not FB) brand to drive viewing.
CONS to consider
1. The aforementioned moribund football program. HOWEVER, the hiring of Lance Leipold as new HC may be a huge factor to consider here. He was recently ranked as one of the top 20 D1 CFB coaches (#9 in one recent ranking) , and if he can resurrect KUFB, the "pot" thickens. Mo money.
2. The NCAA Sword of Damocles. BUT - IMO - the longer a decision is delayed -- and with the recent 9-0 Supreme Court decision, NCAA chief Emmert's speech about "decentralizing" college sports, the NIL and the more seismic activity we see on the conference landscape (which may result in shaking the NCAA out of existence) -- the better the final result for KU. I personally cannot see how they can act on Kurtis Townsend for mere talk (they have no evidence of anything else) when Zion Williamson went to Duke, not KU (and I am forever grateful for that). The whole "shoe company as booster" ploy will backfire in the NCAA's face if they rely upon that (I am convinced there will be legal consequences if they do, and thankfully Jeff Long is GONE!). And KU has it's track record of sitting people when issues arise and cooperating with the NCAA. (In fact, I believe that the NCAA has been shocked by KU saying NO to all charges, we have rolled over so often in the past.) Others less informed and biased (there are a lot of KU haters as well as fans out there) will have different opinions, but I will not be at all surprised if KU ends up following on the tracks that UNC escaped on (no real proof the program did anything wrong, and again thank the heavens Jeff Long is gone!) I just cannot see the NCAA biting that bullet when they know they are on their way out of business.
I think KU will fit quite well should the B1G especially (my preference) or the ACC or even the PAC-12 decide to expand.
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Last Edit: 3 years 3 months ago by HawkErrant. Reason: added John Skipper info on new state -> millions in distribution fees
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3 years 3 months ago #27330
by CorpusJayhawk
Don't worry about the mules, just load the wagon!!
Really nice summary HE. Thanks.
Don't worry about the mules, just load the wagon!!
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #27331
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Lots of scuttlebutt today and tonight that ESPN/Disney is driving this train behind the scenes. Big 12 has even sent a cease and desist letter to ESPN.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Last Edit: 3 years 3 months ago by HawkErrant.
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3 years 3 months ago #27332
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
And then there is this…
Big 12 now believes the American is attempting to take all eight remaining members. Earlier report said "3-5" Big 1… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Big 12 now believes the American is attempting to take all eight remaining members. Earlier report said "3-5" Big 12 members were being solicited Bob Bowlsby told CBS Sports. Story up soon.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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3 years 3 months ago #27333
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
And today aTm says they will ok bringing OU/tu in, paving the way for a unanimous vote to invite them.
aTm to okay OU/tu to SEC
aTm to okay OU/tu to SEC
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #27334
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Remember Kevin Kietzman, the KSU loudmouth who dominated KC area sports radio on 810AM until being fired for making spurious comments about Chiefs HC Andy Reid?
He now has a podcast that somebody —not I — obviously listens to because it has been reported that last night he said ESPN is wanting to get KU into the Big10.
All kinds of folks are making all kinds of comments about Kitty KK and his comments, but the following captures what I think would be his motivation (besides clicks) for pitching such a story.
==========
By HawksJ at kansas.forums.rivals.com/threads/kk-says.../page-2#post-1875988
Anybody who understands anything about Kevin Keitzman knows that the last thing he would ever want to do is promote KU’s image - which talking about the value of the KU brand to ESPN and the B1G does just that (and his fellow grapes are pissed that he did).
He may be making it up entirely or he may have heard some rumblings, but the best explanation for him talking about it is the same reason A&M broke the OU/Texas story - to try to stop it in it’s tracks.
==========
IMO the comment of HawksJ is spot on.
He now has a podcast that somebody —not I — obviously listens to because it has been reported that last night he said ESPN is wanting to get KU into the Big10.
All kinds of folks are making all kinds of comments about Kitty KK and his comments, but the following captures what I think would be his motivation (besides clicks) for pitching such a story.
==========
By HawksJ at kansas.forums.rivals.com/threads/kk-says.../page-2#post-1875988
Anybody who understands anything about Kevin Keitzman knows that the last thing he would ever want to do is promote KU’s image - which talking about the value of the KU brand to ESPN and the B1G does just that (and his fellow grapes are pissed that he did).
He may be making it up entirely or he may have heard some rumblings, but the best explanation for him talking about it is the same reason A&M broke the OU/Texas story - to try to stop it in it’s tracks.
==========
IMO the comment of HawksJ is spot on.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Last Edit: 3 years 3 months ago by HawkErrant.
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3 years 3 months ago #27336
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
And now someone who actually listened to the podcast reveals that KK admitted he has no sources, it was pure speculation on his part.
Nothing new there.
Fuggedaboutit! SMH
Nothing new there.
Fuggedaboutit! SMH
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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3 years 3 months ago - 3 years 3 months ago #27337
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
I added the following info to
my original reply
on the Pros & Cons of KANSAS "fit" with the B1G, etc.
per former ESPN president John Skipper, adding a new state, regardless of size, means huge distributorship fees for conference network cable distribution in a new state.
Skipper, the former ESPN president and current executive chairman of DAZN Group*, was on the two hour podcast of ESPN’s The Dan LeBatard show on 2021-07-27
(link to "Hour 2: A New Look SEC" podcast)
The first 20+ minutes covers the topic and is a worthwhile listen. To jump to pertinent places in the conversation...
6:45 The Big 12 is done?
7:50 The Logic to P4 @16 each (P4=64)
8:30 Kansas is the most appealing, ACC a good home, also the B1G
"...even with fairly small populations, it's still a lot of money..."
13:40 How much do academics matter? (Mentions WVU and ACC; they talk AAU, although no one remembers its proper name)
16:00 NCAA Tournament - P4 make their own tournament, all 64 members in; all other conferences got to the NIT. "Nothing to prevent it." - Skipper
Again, I endorse listing to the entire 20+ minutes, if you have the time. The rest of the podcast is other topics.
Rock Chalk!
========================================================
*From Wikipedia: DAZN is a global over-the-top sports (OTT) subscription video streaming service. The service carries live and on-demand streaming of events from various properties as well as original programming. DAZN launched in Austria, Germany, Switzerland and Japan in August 2016, and in Canada the following year. It launched in the United States and Italy in 2018, and in Spain and Brazil in 2019. In December 2020, it expanded to become available in more than 200 countries and territories. (link)
per former ESPN president John Skipper, adding a new state, regardless of size, means huge distributorship fees for conference network cable distribution in a new state.
Skipper, the former ESPN president and current executive chairman of DAZN Group*, was on the two hour podcast of ESPN’s The Dan LeBatard show on 2021-07-27
(link to "Hour 2: A New Look SEC" podcast)
The first 20+ minutes covers the topic and is a worthwhile listen. To jump to pertinent places in the conversation...
6:45 The Big 12 is done?
7:50 The Logic to P4 @16 each (P4=64)
8:30 Kansas is the most appealing, ACC a good home, also the B1G
"...even with fairly small populations, it's still a lot of money..."
13:40 How much do academics matter? (Mentions WVU and ACC; they talk AAU, although no one remembers its proper name)
16:00 NCAA Tournament - P4 make their own tournament, all 64 members in; all other conferences got to the NIT. "Nothing to prevent it." - Skipper
Again, I endorse listing to the entire 20+ minutes, if you have the time. The rest of the podcast is other topics.
Rock Chalk!
========================================================
*From Wikipedia: DAZN is a global over-the-top sports (OTT) subscription video streaming service. The service carries live and on-demand streaming of events from various properties as well as original programming. DAZN launched in Austria, Germany, Switzerland and Japan in August 2016, and in Canada the following year. It launched in the United States and Italy in 2018, and in Spain and Brazil in 2019. In December 2020, it expanded to become available in more than 200 countries and territories. (link)
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Last Edit: 3 years 3 months ago by HawkErrant.
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3 years 3 months ago #27338
by Illhawk
I have long hoped that KU would join the Big !0. I live in Illinois: many of my close friends attended Illinois or Wisconsin. The idea of the Hawks playing 3 0r 4 basketball games within a 4 hour drive sounds great.
Then today as I was on a bike ride it occurred to me that the Pac 16 might be our new home. Seems that taking apart the Big XII gets easier if, after UT and OU, there are four lifeboats sailing west. WV wouldn't geographically make sense as part of that group so four of KU, BU. TCU, OSU, ISU , TT and KSU join the Arizona schools the Buffs and Utes in the inland division? If the Clones go to the Big 10 it gets simpler,
Then today as I was on a bike ride it occurred to me that the Pac 16 might be our new home. Seems that taking apart the Big XII gets easier if, after UT and OU, there are four lifeboats sailing west. WV wouldn't geographically make sense as part of that group so four of KU, BU. TCU, OSU, ISU , TT and KSU join the Arizona schools the Buffs and Utes in the inland division? If the Clones go to the Big 10 it gets simpler,
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