×
Rock Chalk Talk: Basketball
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Keegans Article on Self's elite 8 record
- CorpusJayhawk
- Topic Author
- Offline
- Platinum Member
Less
More
- Posts: 1849
- Thank you received: 3650
8 years 7 months ago #7741
by CorpusJayhawk
Don't worry about the mules, just load the wagon!!
As I have talked about before, the statistics can only project a correlation with some measure of validity of that correlation. Based on the fixed inputs (Winn, losses, seeds) Self has been mediocre in the tournament and generally underachieved in the ELite 8. But as I said, the statistics only provide potential correlation but offer nothing in terms of causation. Keegan attempts to address the validity of the correlation and shed light on the possible causation. I do like his analysis and am intrigued by his hypothesis. Namely, he hypothisizes that the causative factor is that Self has had lesser talent more often then not in the Elite 8 games. He measures talent by totaling the points scored in the NBA. I am not sure that is the best way to measure talent but it is a pretty decent one and interesting at least. But his conclusion begs one very huge question that itself may have some interesting causative elements. That question is this. Why does the superior talent not translate into better regular season performance and/or why does whatever allows KU to be superior in the regular season get surpassed by the better talent in the NCAA tourney? It is an interesting question. One could argue that these teams don't gel until later since often that superior talent is young. Or one could argue that the superior talent is episodic or less consistent and therefore prone to more frequent off games. (I have a measure for that in my DPPI called consistency factor which would largely answer this question if I had DPPI back in those days). I think there is a valid causative element in Keegan's hypothesis. I also think it is not exhaustive. It is not the only causative element. Konza posited some causative hypotheses in an earlier post. Injuries being the greatest. Clearly injuries are a huge causative element. The injury to Embiid, in fact, was likely the single cause. I would also posit that one of the main reasons we perform so well in the regular season is because of Bill Self. That he wins games with lesser talent. But when we get to a one and done, that greater talent steps up with the higher motivation. Does anyone remember a player named Trey Burke? That was one super talented Michigan team. But we were so much better coached (except for that game). If talent is the key then going for the one and dones is the right strategy. It would be interesting if someone could take this theory beyond Kansas and correlate it to all teams.
Don't worry about the mules, just load the wagon!!
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Share this page:
- konza63
- Offline
- Moderator
- c'85 Towering toward the Blue
Less
More
- Posts: 2203
- Thank you received: 1280
8 years 7 months ago #7745
by konza63
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Yeah, I thought it was an interesting take too. It was unfortunate to revisit the VCU debacle through the lens of this analysis--all that KU talent, yet dusted by a mid-major on the big stage. (Ugh...)
RE your points about "causative factors," maybe I inadvertently was offering up injuries as that, but my main point about injuries was that, when you suffer a huge one on the eve of the tourney (Embiid), you can throw the computer forecasting models out the window--particularly when they can't adjust like a human being's eyes and mind can. KU wasn't making a deep run without Embiid, and yet we get dinged by the win probability models for not going deep in the Dance (given our high seed--a high seed earned in large part due to Embiid's presence during our regular season success).
Anyway, more on that when I get time. It will be an involved post, and my post-tourney-flameout energy level hasn't been high enough yet to carry it home. If Nova wins tonight (which I'm feeling should happen if the better and hotter team prevails), perhaps I'll summon said energy.
RE your points about "causative factors," maybe I inadvertently was offering up injuries as that, but my main point about injuries was that, when you suffer a huge one on the eve of the tourney (Embiid), you can throw the computer forecasting models out the window--particularly when they can't adjust like a human being's eyes and mind can. KU wasn't making a deep run without Embiid, and yet we get dinged by the win probability models for not going deep in the Dance (given our high seed--a high seed earned in large part due to Embiid's presence during our regular season success).
Anyway, more on that when I get time. It will be an involved post, and my post-tourney-flameout energy level hasn't been high enough yet to carry it home. If Nova wins tonight (which I'm feeling should happen if the better and hotter team prevails), perhaps I'll summon said energy.
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- NotOstertag
- Offline
- Platinum Member
Less
More
- Posts: 1957
- Thank you received: 2162
8 years 7 months ago #7749
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
...is that KU would beat any of the teams in the elite 8 in a 5 game series...so we'd win 3 out of 5 against anybody at minimum.
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Villanova.
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Villanova.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- konza63
- Offline
- Moderator
- c'85 Towering toward the Blue
Less
More
- Posts: 2203
- Thank you received: 1280
8 years 7 months ago - 8 years 7 months ago #7750
by konza63
The following are also true:
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Duke. (1986)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Virginia. (1995)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Arizona. (1997)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Maryland. (2002)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Syracuse. (2003)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against VCU. (2011)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Villanova. (2016)
(Note: None of the above were early-round flameouts; instead, all were situations where we were a very high seed, a dominant regular-season team, favored to win the game in question, seemingly the better team, and thought to be well-positioned to get to the NC game)
"Close but no cigar..."
"Best team didn't win..."
"If we had an NBA playoff format..."
"Woulda coulda shoulda..."
If it weren't for KU pulling out that miraculous finish against Memphis in '08, we'd be forgiven if we felt like Bills fans in the early 90s or Vikings fans in the early 70s. (Yes, that's overstated for effect, since we did win it in '08, and also back in '88)
However, the bottom line still holds: Our beloved Jayhawks just haven't seized opportunities that were presented to them nearly enough. It hurts like hell to admit that, but admit it we must.
Champions close the deal.
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
I hear you, NotO, and agree. But regarding your closing point:KU would beat any of the teams in the elite 8 in a 5 game series...so we'd win 3 out of 5 against anybody at minimum.
[/i]That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Villanova.
The following are also true:
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Duke. (1986)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Virginia. (1995)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Arizona. (1997)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Maryland. (2002)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Syracuse. (2003)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against VCU. (2011)
That's a 60% shot in any game and ended up having that 40% show up against Villanova. (2016)
(Note: None of the above were early-round flameouts; instead, all were situations where we were a very high seed, a dominant regular-season team, favored to win the game in question, seemingly the better team, and thought to be well-positioned to get to the NC game)
"Close but no cigar..."
"Best team didn't win..."
"If we had an NBA playoff format..."
"Woulda coulda shoulda..."
If it weren't for KU pulling out that miraculous finish against Memphis in '08, we'd be forgiven if we felt like Bills fans in the early 90s or Vikings fans in the early 70s. (Yes, that's overstated for effect, since we did win it in '08, and also back in '88)
However, the bottom line still holds: Our beloved Jayhawks just haven't seized opportunities that were presented to them nearly enough. It hurts like hell to admit that, but admit it we must.
Champions close the deal.
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Last Edit: 8 years 7 months ago by konza63.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.