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Will Anything Actually Happen?

  • Senex68
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8 years 8 months ago #6187 by Senex68

"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”

Glenn Reynolds

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8 years 8 months ago #6188 by rainyhawk
It's certainly looking more and more like it won't. How the NCAA can exist at this point is mind boggling. Apparently they can only go after minor infractions and spend months and months investigating basketball athletes who were cleared initially. And basketball seems to be their major focus....don't hear a lot about investigating ineligible football players and I know for a fact there have been several from this area recently whose academic reports were scams. It's become a disgusting farce.

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8 years 8 months ago #6193 by hairyhawk
As the great University president Quincy Adams Wagstaff knew. We need to sell the university dorms to pay for the football team. When asked where the students would sleep he answered..."In the classroom where they always have." This was an issue in 1932 and not much has changed. I doubt the NCAA does anything about this. Like the unfortunate "joke" said. When a story like this comes to light the University of Hawaii is in trouble.

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8 years 8 months ago #6197 by NotOstertag
But it'll be too little too late.

UNC has successfully kicked this down the road past the end of hoops season. So if they get ruled on in June, they may give up titles from the time of the infractions, but they'll have been allowed to finish up their current year without penalty. So Roy, who was undoubtedlly either aware of things, or was completely ignorant of what was happening around him (complicit or out to lunch) will likely get to stroll off into the sunset unscathed as well.

The NCAA will HAVE to act, since it's the biggest academic fraud case ever. Nevertheless, if Roy retires, you've got football penalties at a school where football is an afterthought, and basketball penalties that will fall on a new coaching staff and players who were never involved.

So yeah, something will happen, but by the time it does, UNC basketball will already be in "rebuilding mode" and will emerge on the other side of any penalties still being perceived as a premier college basketball school.

"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot

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8 years 8 months ago #6203 by konza63

The first UNC course offered as a favor to the basketball team, scheduled in 1988, was an independent study for two painfully weak students who hovered at or below the eligibility line. They received helpful B's, and out of that little experiment the UNC course scam was born. In fall 1992 one star of the basketball team ostensibly pursued an independent study with a faculty member who was on sabbatical at the time. (I know this because I shared a fellowship leave with that faculty member.) This had to have been one of the "shadow" courses offered by the administrative assistant who played such a central role in the fraud, a generous woman whose closest friend was the basketball team's academic counselor. She assigned A or B grades in the shadow courses, which required no attendance and little work. One player on the 1993 team took seven suspect courses with her help; four starters on that team majored in the department where she worked. UNC's 1993 championship run seems to have been aided and abetted by fraud.


Say it ain't so, Joe. The "squeaky-clean" figure of Dean Smith himself, in charge when academic fraud was rampant? And then his kowtowing protege, Roy, presiding over two championship teams with the specter of fraud running rampant:

By 2005, when UNC won its next national championship, the "paper class" system (so called because students had to turn in only one paper of uncertain provenance to collect their A's) was hitting on all cylinders. Players on the men's basketball team took over one hundred of the fake courses, with one racking up eighteen. Star forward Rashad McCants has admitted that he rarely attended a single class in the spring of 2005 -- even though he landed on the Dean's list for the high grades he was awarded. Players on the 2009 national championship team received similar favors.


Shocking. Shocking, I tell you.

But the NCAA has had more pressing matters to contend with--such as investigating the 6th grade transcripts in Mali of a very bright young man seeking to start his college career on schedule at KU.

WHAT A FARCE!!!

“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”

1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
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8 years 8 months ago #6205 by Wheatstate Gal
Amazing...I thought the same thing....smith and Roy....father and son in arms. Unless Roy really is as dumb as he looks.....I say that all the time that thank goodness I'm not as dumb as I look! :silly:

But I sleep well at night knowing that chieck's 6th grade work passes NCAA muster...oh my, but what about 5th grade???? :(

"Worried in SoCal"

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8 years 8 months ago #6208 by pjaye73
For the NCAA, it's all about selling tickets to UNC fans in 2016. The NCAA naturally wants to wait until next season when UNC will not be as strong. I seem to remember that there was some minor infraction that Roy Williams committed at Kansas (monetary gifts to seniors?) that was brought to light after he left.

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8 years 8 months ago #6215 by Illhawk
I am going with the post Final Four , Roy "retires" and as task force vows to clean things up along with a semi-painless wrist slap probably a ride or two. By my estimation this is the worse mess we have seen in college sports since SMU football ( worse than SMU hoops currently, Syracuse hoops and Louisville entertainment) combined, but the NCAA is just gutless about the uber flagship in Chapel Hill.
Beating these guys in Houston would be soooo sweet!

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8 years 8 months ago #6217 by Wheatstate Gal
PJ

IIRC some seniors received graduation gifts from "boosters"....I want to say the amounts were not huge, but that may be me recalling through my Crimson tinted glasses.

It seemed trivial, but I guess it could have morphed into something not trivial. "If you play at KS, there will be a nice "graduation" gift at the end of your eligibility......lots of zeros." ;)

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8 years 8 months ago #6218 by Illhawk
Penn State was the saddest tired old king blind eye, probably ever, but not really aimed at competitive advantage. The NCAA may have overdid that one, but they threatened extreme sanctions and got PSU to sign off on crippling penalties.

Assuming they have admissible statements , from players, tutors and faculty ,to connect the dots on as few as three or four non-classes over different seasons they could and should start the bidding with a multi-year ban and let the Heels mea culpa their way down from there.

( This assumes one thing:that the depth , severity and duration at UNC of academic fraud was palpably worse than at any other program based on current investigations) If this degree of shenanigans was as rampant as juice in MLB during the 1990's and the evidence is there on multiple schools, then I get it how the wrist slap, Roy crying his way into retirement makes sense.

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8 years 8 months ago #6220 by NotOstertag
Joe Dooley's Florida Gulf Coast team makes UNC the 1st number 1 seed in history to lose to a 16. Then, reeling from that embarrassment, the NCAA lowers the boom, and 10 seasons worth of W's disappear from the all time win list.

"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot

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8 years 8 months ago #6222 by Senex68
The one major difference between the current environment and, say, 10 years ago, is the internet. If the NCAA does nothing, the uproar will be a major issue for them, and will continue for a long time. And there may even be litigation, both adverse to the NCAA and UNC. Cheating damages people and institutions, and this level of cheating changed the landscape of college basketball for a generation. In many ways it was the worst violation of NCAA regulations in history due to the number of athletes involved, the number of university employees involved, and the number of games (championships!) involved. The implications for UNC are profound, and if the NCAA does actually act with seriousness, UNC will be damaged irreparably. I don't think it will happen, but just imagine the impact of voiding multiple NCAA titles in basketball. It would finally put The Kentucky cephalopod in a much lower position in the hierarchy of dishonesty, behind such alleged paragons of virtue, Dean Smith and Roy Williams. I don't know what will happen, but it just seems impossible to me that nothing will happen, and this kind of scandal can't be minimized if they address it at all. It's pretty much an 'all or nothing' kind of situation.

"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”

Glenn Reynolds

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8 years 8 months ago #6243 by HawkErrant

NotOstertag wrote: Joe Dooley's Florida Gulf Coast team makes UNC the 1st number 1 seed in history to lose to a 16. Then, reeling from that embarrassment, the NCAA lowers the boom, and 10 seasons worth of W's disappear from the all time win list.


I would LOVE the first point.

To the second (bolded) point, if that happens, at least 2 NCs would be vacated, maybe more if they go back to the very beginning.

What I found most compelling about the article was that it was written by a then and current UNC professor ("Jay M. Smith is a professor of history at UNC-Chapel Hill. He is the co-author, with Mary Willingham [the whistleblower with whom UNC settled out of court in 2015 for $335K - HE], of Cheated: The UNC Scandal, the Education of Athletes, and the Future of Big-Time College Sports.")

Sadly, since the NCAA managed to punish Syracuse without causing them to lose their 2003 NC, I will believe appropriate sanctions will happen when I see them.

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
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8 years 8 months ago #6244 by HawkErrant

Senex68 wrote: The one major difference between the current environment and, say, 10 years ago, is the internet. If the NCAA does nothing, the uproar will be a major issue for them, and will continue for a long time. And there may even be litigation, both adverse to the NCAA and UNC. Cheating damages people and institutions, and this level of cheating changed the landscape of college basketball for a generation. In many ways it was the worst violation of NCAA regulations in history due to the number of athletes involved, the number of university employees involved, and the number of games (championships!) involved. The implications for UNC are profound, and if the NCAA does actually act with seriousness, UNC will be damaged irreparably. I don't think it will happen, but just imagine the impact of voiding multiple NCAA titles in basketball. It would finally put The Kentucky cephalopod in a much lower position in the hierarchy of dishonesty, behind such alleged paragons of virtue, Dean Smith and Roy Williams. I don't know what will happen, but it just seems impossible to me that nothing will happen, and this kind of scandal can't be minimized if they address it at all. It's pretty much an 'all or nothing' kind of situation.


If the management of the NCAA has any hopes of the organization continuing to exist as an ongoing cash-cow concern, they have to do something significant. If they do not, the so called Power 5 conferences (their majority shareholders, if you will) will do with men's basketball what they have done with football -- cut the NCAA out of the picture where the $$$ is concerned.

As to litigation, UNC has already settled out of court with the whistleblower . I would be astounded, in our litigious environment, it UNC does not see more. I am sure UNC has not only already circled the wagons, but is well underway in building the fortifications needed to survive the legal assault with minimal damage, whatever "minimal" may be.

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"

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8 years 8 months ago #6255 by NotOstertag
I'm sure that at any institution there are professors who butt heads with the athletic department, especially when it comes to athletics taking precedence over academics.

In the UNC case, I'd say there's probably a BIG rift happening. Bottom line, if you were a legitimate student during that time, but happened to play a sport, it tarnishes your degree too as people could potentially question what you did to earn it. Likewise, the guilty professors cast a shadow over their peers too. If the university turned a blind eye to this case, who's to say that they weren't doing things elsewhere. In the long run, I see a class-action suit happening naming the university and being brought by former athletes.

But yeah...all just a dream until I see otherwise.

"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot

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8 years 8 months ago - 8 years 8 months ago #6258 by Senex68
The whistleblower is the least of their concerns. They are almost certainly going to be sued by various former athletes who were promised an actual education, and did not receive one. Most of their former basketball players will stay quiet, because so many of them made a lot of money as a result of their years at UNC, but some definitely won't remain quiet. Other institutions can sue them, and some surely will, as will players on other teams who were damaged by the cheating at UNC. Games were won by UNC teams with ineligible athletes, and that alone will be a serious problem for the university. This is the kind of storm that will end up attracting the plaintiff bar in great numbers, and there could even be a class action or two in the mix. It may take a while yet, but I wouldn't be optimistic about the Tarholes surviving this intact. Perhaps an extra tarhole or two will be drilled into the corpse of that institution.

"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”

Glenn Reynolds
Last Edit: 8 years 8 months ago by Senex68.

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8 years 8 months ago #6284 by Illhawk
I have to admit I don't see the flood of civil litigation you do. I suspect between the statute of limitations, whatever it may be on these claims ( even acknowledging that there may be fraud that was concealed by some defendants) and proximate case concerns that few of these make it to the filing stage.

Again the charges are probably stale, but criminal complaints for some form of official misconduct seems intriguing,; did Nifong ever get his licence back?

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8 years 8 months ago #6295 by NotOstertag
If there's a buck to be made, the lawyers will smell it like sharks drawn to chum.

It's really pretty simple: Let's say you were a so-so football player at Carolina or a hoops player who never had the talent to go to the NBA. You graduated and got a diploma from the University. Now, years later, your degree is in question because you took classes that your coach recommended you to take. Next time you go looking for a job, it's "Oh, sorry, we don't believe that you actually have that college degree because you played sports at UNC in 1999."

Statute of limitations might come into play, but in the end, the school essentially committed fraud, and the "victims" can attempt to claim damages by having earned what turned out to be fraudulent degrees. If they can prove that UNC told them that these "paper courses" were legit, I think they'd have a case.

Are they legit cases? Who knows. As I said, if there's an attorney that sees this as a path to making some easy money, they'll certainly try. And with literally THOUSANDS of former athletes involved, the class action angle (along with the attorney's cut of a much bigger award) seems logical.

Any actual lawyers out there who can provide an informed opinion?

"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot

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8 years 8 months ago #6317 by Illhawk
Of all the claims I see least likely to prevail would be the participant claim. A person saying I got my degree without working because I took worthless classes and now I am unemployable seems to have no legs.

This seems an easy Motion to Dismiss : "the Plaintiff knowingly participated in the sham and received the benefit of more time to lift weights and play video games. Nobody forced him to take 80 hours of classes with papers written by somebody he never met."

The "real students" with their degrees devalued are innocent but damages seem tenuous.

The kids who would have won more games at other schools, but for the machinations at UNC, too speculative.

Shown me a faculty member that was fired or not promoted... for not "playing ball" that sounds intriguing.

I say perp walk a couple tutors or counselors and we will all learn much about this scheme, with the quality of evidence even the NCAA cannot overlook..

JD Green Hall 1986
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