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Who is the best NCAA Tourney Coach?

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CorpusJayhawk
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8 years 8 months ago #5258 by CorpusJayhawk

This is data compiled for the 2014 through the 2015 tourney (corresponding to Bill Self's tenure at KU. I will attempt to explain the point system. The points are based on established probabilities. For instance the probability that a team will win when playing an equal seed is 0.5. So winning against an equal seed counts for 0.5 points and losing against an equal seed counts for -0.5 points. There is a table of the probabilities. For instance, a 1 seed has an 84% probability of of beating an 8 seed. So if a 1 seed beats an 8 seed the coach receives 0.16 points whereas if an 8 seed beat a 1 seed the coach would get 0.84 points. The intent is to gauge which coach has played to seed the best. Unfortunately, John Calipari has done the best of all coaches since 2004 followed by Tom Izzo and on down. Look at the bottom. The 12th worst of 273 coaches is Coach K in terms of winning to expectation based on seed. Bill Self is 27th but more importantly, Bill has a positive outcome, meaning overall, he has played better than his seed. Looking at it another way, the bottom table is sorted by win points. In other words, who has accumulated the most win points. Bill Self is 5th in this regard. These numbers paint a picture that Coach Self has been effective in the NCAA Turney but not outrageously so.

Coach	W	L	Tot
Calipari, John    	11.8	-4.4	7.4
Izzo, Tom         	12.2	-5.0	7.2
Stevens, Brad     	7.0	-1.7	5.3
Donovan, Billy    	9.3	-4.2	5.1
Pitino, Rick      	8.7	-4.7	4.0
Miller, Sean      	6.4	-2.6	3.8
Ollie, Kevin      	3.7		3.7
Williams, Roy     	7.7	-4.1	3.6
Calhoun, Jim      	5.7	-3.1	2.7
Huggins, Bob      	5.6	-3.3	2.3
Beilein, John     	4.6	-2.5	2.1
Groce, John       	2.8	-0.7	2.1
Howland, Ben      	5.1	-3.1	2.0
Ryan, Bo          	7.7	-5.8	1.9
Beliein, John     	2.4	-0.7	1.7
Giannini, John    	2.1	-0.5	1.7
Brady, John       	2.4	-1.0	1.4
Marshall, Gregg   	4.5	-3.1	1.4
Miller, Archie    	2.2	-0.8	1.3
Les, Jim          	1.4	-0.1	1.3
Enfield, Andy     	1.5	-0.2	1.3
Matta, Thad       	7.1	-5.9	1.2
Drew, Scott       	3.5	-2.2	1.2
Larranaga, Jim    	2.9	-1.8	1.1
Tyndall, Donnie   	1.2	-0.2	1.0
Gottfried, Mike   	2.5	-1.6	0.9
Self, Bill        	7.9	-7.0	0.9
Gottfried, Mark   	2.7	-1.8	0.9
Hewitt, Paul      	2.8	-1.9	0.9
Flannery, Pat     	1.3	-0.5	0.8
Capel, Jeff       	1.6	-0.8	0.8
Dawkins, Johnny   	0.9	-0.1	0.8
Anderson, Mike    	4.1	-3.3	0.8
Turgeon, Mark     	2.8	-2.0	0.8
Sutton, Eddie     	1.9	-1.2	0.7
Pennell           	0.8	-0.1	0.7
Horn, Darrin      	0.8	-0.1	0.7
Hoffman, Bob      	0.8	-0.1	0.7
Pearl, Bruce      	3.7	-3.1	0.7
Lickliter, Todd   	0.9	-0.2	0.7
Reed, Brett       	0.9	-0.2	0.7
Trent, Johnson    	0.9	-0.3	0.6
Martin, Cuonzo    	1.2	-0.6	0.6
Grier, Bill       	0.7	-0.1	0.6
Waters, Gary      	0.7	-0.1	0.6
Olson, Lute       	2.0	-1.4	0.6
Giacoletti, Ray   	1.0	-0.4	0.6
Jacobson, Ben     	1.7	-1.2	0.5
Kent, Ernie       	1.3	-0.8	0.5
Majerus, Rick     	0.5		0.5
Freeman, Dwight   	0.9	-0.4	0.5
Krystkowiak, Larry	1.5	-1.1	0.5
Hunter, Ron       	0.8	-0.3	0.4
Skinner, Al       	2.1	-1.7	0.4
Altman, Dana      	1.8	-1.4	0.4
Painter, Matt     	3.3	-2.9	0.4
Brady, Matt       	0.5	-0.1	0.4
Toole, Andrew     	0.5	-0.1	0.4
Alexander, Cy     	0.5	-0.1	0.4
Callero, Joe      	0.5	-0.1	0.4
Ivory, George     	0.5	-0.1	0.4
Brown, Milan      	0.5	-0.1	0.4
Becker, John      	0.5	-0.1	0.4
McCaffrey, Fran   	1.7	-1.3	0.4
Morgan, Wayne     	0.5	-0.1	0.4
Knight, Bob       	1.5	-1.1	0.3
Mack, Chris       	2.3	-2.0	0.3
Thompson, Brooks  	0.5	-0.2	0.3
Joyner, Edward Jr.	0.5	-0.2	0.3
Biedenbach, Eddie 	0.5	-0.2	0.3
Harper, Ray       	0.5	-0.2	0.3
Lowrey, Chris     	1.2	-0.9	0.3
Kennedy, Billy    	0.7	-0.4	0.3
Brennan, Tom      	0.7	-0.4	0.3
Calloway, Dave    	0.5	-0.2	0.3
Williams, Buzz    	3.1	-2.8	0.3
Amaker, Tommy     	1.5	-1.2	0.2
Donohue, Steve    	0.9	-0.7	0.2
McConathy, Mike   	0.8	-0.6	0.2
Prosser, Dave     	1.2	-1.0	0.2
Milalich, Joe     	0.5	-0.3	0.2
McKillop, Bob     	1.6	-1.5	0.1
Martin, Frank     	2.1	-2.0	0.1
Pelphrey, John    	0.5	-0.4	0.1
Boeheim, Jim      	5.0	-4.9	0.1
Smart, Shaka      	3.4	-3.3	0.1
Mooney, Chris     	0.8	-0.7	0.1
Few, Mark         	5.2	-5.2	0.0
Holtmann, Chris   	0.4	-0.4	0.0
Prohm, Steve      	0.4	-0.4	0.0
Floyd, Tim        	1.4	-1.5	0.0
Kennedy, Andy     	1.2	-1.3	-0.1
McDonald, Ken     	0.7	-0.8	-0.1
Gonzalez, Bobby   	0.7	-0.8	-0.1
Leitao, Dave      	0.7	-0.8	-0.1
Green, James      		-0.1	-0.1
Green, Tom        		-0.1	-0.1
Banks, Roman      		-0.1	-0.1
Gillespie, Mike   	0.5	-0.6	-0.1
Greenberg, Bradley		-0.1	-0.1
Anderson, Tevester		-0.1	-0.1
Dickenman, Howie  		-0.1	-0.1
O'Hanlon, Fred    		-0.1	-0.1
Cross, Scott      		-0.1	-0.1
Dunton, Randy     		-0.1	-0.1
Jackson, Greg     		-0.1	-0.1
Kampe, Greg       	0.5	-0.6	-0.1
Louis, Orr        	0.5	-0.6	-0.1
Haase, Jerod      		-0.1	-0.1
Greenberg, Seth   	0.3	-0.5	-0.1
Loos, Dave        		-0.1	-0.1
Broadus, Kevin    		-0.1	-0.1
Brennan, Mike     		-0.1	-0.1
Hill, B.J.        		-0.1	-0.1
Braswell, Bobby   		-0.1	-0.1
Richman, David    		-0.1	-0.1
McCallum, Ray     		-0.1	-0.1
Drew, Homer       		-0.1	-0.1
Monroe, Randy     		-0.1	-0.1
Patsos, Jimmy     		-0.1	-0.1
Eustachy, Larry   	0.5	-0.6	-0.2
Gillespie, Billy  	1.3	-1.5	-0.2
Stansbury, Rick   	1.1	-1.3	-0.2
Thomason, Bob     	1.2	-1.3	-0.2
Romar, Lorenzo    	2.7	-2.9	-0.2
Ellis, Cliff      		-0.2	-0.2
Spivery, Rob      		-0.2	-0.2
Sampson, Kelvin   	0.7	-0.9	-0.2
Jeter, Rob        	0.6	-0.9	-0.2
Lansing, Greg     		-0.2	-0.2
Coles, Charlie    		-0.2	-0.2
Burton, Bob       		-0.2	-0.2
Kaspar, Danny     		-0.2	-0.2
Schmidt, Mark     		-0.2	-0.2
Evans, Jesse      		-0.2	-0.2
Miller, Glen      		-0.2	-0.2
Felton, Dennis    		-0.2	-0.2
Coen, Bill        		-0.2	-0.2
Graham, Greg      		-0.2	-0.2
Moton, LeVelle    		-0.2	-0.2
John, Duanne      		-0.2	-0.2
Neubauer, Jeff    		-0.2	-0.2
Ferry, Jim        		-0.2	-0.2
Rahe, Randy       		-0.2	-0.2
Shulman, John     		-0.2	-0.2
Crews, Jim        	0.6	-0.8	-0.2
Ruland, Jeff      		-0.3	-0.3
Penders, Tom      		-0.3	-0.3
Bzdelik, Jeff     		-0.3	-0.3
Collins, Jimmy    		-0.3	-0.3
O'Shea, Tim       		-0.3	-0.3
Theus, Reggie     		-0.3	-0.3
Willard, Ralph    		-0.3	-0.3
Drew, Bryce       		-0.3	-0.3
Johnson, Sydney   		-0.3	-0.3
Turne, Russell    		-0.3	-0.3
Capel, Jeff III   		-0.3	-0.3
Ross, Monte       		-0.3	-0.3
Manning, Danny    		-0.3	-0.3
Hayford, Jim      		-0.3	-0.3
Lee, Robert       		-0.3	-0.3
Bozeman, Todd     		-0.3	-0.3
Williams, Bob     		-0.3	-0.3
Rice, Mike        		-0.3	-0.3
Wright, Jay       	4.5	-4.7	-0.3
Phillips, Saul    	0.7	-1.0	-0.3
Hoiberg, Fred     	1.9	-2.2	-0.3
McKay, Ritchie    		-0.3	-0.3
Reynolds, Larry   		-0.3	-0.3
Monson, Dan       		-0.3	-0.3
Barbee, Tony      		-0.3	-0.3
Cleveland, Steve  		-0.3	-0.3
Shyatt, Larry     		-0.3	-0.3
Hurley, Bobby     		-0.3	-0.3
Brown, Will       	0.5	-0.8	-0.3
Johnson, Trent    	1.1	-1.5	-0.4
Hobbs, Karl       	0.5	-0.8	-0.4
Gaudio, Dino      	0.5	-0.9	-0.4
Sendek, Herb      	2.1	-2.5	-0.4
Jones, Jeff       		-0.4	-0.4
Speraw, Kirk      		-0.4	-0.4
Wainwright, Jerry 		-0.4	-0.4
Gillispie, Billy  		-0.4	-0.4
Scott, Joe        		-0.4	-0.4
Rupp, Kerry       		-0.4	-0.4
Sadler, Doc       		-0.4	-0.4
Bone, Ken         		-0.4	-0.4
Davis, Mike       	1.1	-1.5	-0.4
DeChellis, Ed     		-0.4	-0.4
Odom, Dave        		-0.4	-0.4
Underwood, Brad   	0.7	-1.1	-0.5
Marlin, Bob       		-0.5	-0.5
Bartow, Murry     		-0.5	-0.5
Llayer, Dale      		-0.5	-0.5
Mitchell, Ron     		-0.5	-0.5
Woods, Sean       		-0.5	-0.5
Davis, Kermit Jr. 		-0.5	-0.5
Pettaway, L. Vann 		-0.5	-0.5
Collins, Bobby    		-0.5	-0.5
Taylor, Bill      		-0.5	-0.5
Driscoll, Matthew 		-0.5	-0.5
Shields, Steve    		-0.5	-0.5
Christian, Jamion 		-0.5	-0.5
Knight, Pat       		-0.5	-0.5
Parri, Jack       		-0.5	-0.5
Nagy, Scott       		-0.5	-0.5
Pastner, Josh     	0.9	-1.4	-0.5
Dakich, Dan       		-0.5	-0.5
Monson, Don       		-0.5	-0.5
Gregory, Brian    	0.6	-1.2	-0.5
Heath, Stan       	1.2	-1.7	-0.5
Brownell, Brad    	0.5	-1.0	-0.5
Braun, Ben        		-0.6	-0.6
Neal, Craig       		-0.6	-0.6
Arrow, Ronnie     		-0.6	-0.6
Lonergan, Mike    		-0.6	-0.6
Hawkins, Steve    		-0.6	-0.6
Paulsen, David    		-0.6	-0.6
Sutton, Scott     		-0.6	-0.6
Fisher, Steve     	2.4	-3.0	-0.6
Samuels, Rick     		-0.6	-0.6
Brown, Larry      		-0.6	-0.6
Kellogg, Derek    		-0.6	-0.6
Cluess, Tim       		-0.6	-0.6
Cronin, Mick      	1.8	-2.5	-0.7
Bennett, Randy    	1.4	-2.1	-0.7
Bolye, Jim        		-0.7	-0.7
Davis, Keno       		-0.7	-0.7
Weslsh, Tim       		-0.7	-0.7
Kruger, Lon       	2.6	-3.3	-0.7
Dambrot, Keith    		-0.7	-0.7
Miles, Tom        		-0.7	-0.7
Hamilton, Leonard 	1.2	-1.9	-0.8
Jones, Johnny     		-0.8	-0.8
Peele, Randy      		-0.8	-0.8
Masiello, Steve   		-0.8	-0.8
Tinkle, Wayne     		-0.8	-0.8
Christian, Jim    		-0.8	-0.8
Williams, Gary    	1.4	-2.3	-0.9
Stallings, Kevin  	2.3	-3.2	-0.9
McDermott, Greg   	1.2	-2.1	-0.9
O'Neill, Kevin    		-0.9	-0.9
Martelli, Phil    	0.5	-1.4	-0.9
Grant, Anthony    	0.6	-1.6	-0.9
Smith, Tubby      	2.4	-3.4	-1.0
Young,  Mike      		-1.0	-1.0
Jackson, Lewis    		-1.0	-1.0
Rice, Leon        		-1.0	-1.0
Cooley, Ed        		-1.0	-1.0
Fox, Mark         	1.0	-2.0	-1.0
Boyle, Tad        	0.6	-1.7	-1.0
Lutz, Bob         		-1.0	-1.0
Weber, Bruce      	2.5	-3.6	-1.1
Barnes, Rick      	3.9	-5.0	-1.1
Lavin, Steve      		-1.1	-1.1
Haith, Frank      	0.4	-1.6	-1.2
Alford, Steve     	2.4	-3.6	-1.2
Taylor, Blaine    	0.6	-1.8	-1.2
Crean, Tom        	1.7	-2.9	-1.2
Thompson, John III	3.1	-4.4	-1.3
Menzies, Marvin   		-1.3	-1.3
Krzyzewski, Mike  	5.6	-6.9	-1.3
Rice, Dave        		-1.3	-1.3
Bennett, Tony     	1.4	-2.8	-1.4
Byrd, Rick        		-1.4	-1.4
Rose, Dave        	1.9	-3.4	-1.5
Montgomery, Mike  	1.3	-2.8	-1.6
Morrill, Stew     		-1.6	-1.6
Purnell, Oliver   		-1.8	-1.8
Dixon, Jamie      	3.5	-5.4	-1.9
Dunphy, Fran      	1.0	-2.9	-1.9
Ford, Travis      	0.5	-2.5	-2.0
Brey, Mike        	1.4	-3.5	-2.1

Coach	W	L	Tot
Izzo, Tom         	12.2	-5.0	7.2
Calipari, John    	11.8	-4.4	7.4
Donovan, Billy    	9.3	-4.2	5.1
Pitino, Rick      	8.7	-4.7	4.0
Self, Bill        	7.9	-7.0	0.9
Williams, Roy     	7.7	-4.1	3.6
Ryan, Bo          	7.7	-5.8	1.9
Matta, Thad       	7.1	-5.9	1.2
Stevens, Brad     	7.0	-1.7	5.3
Miller, Sean      	6.4	-2.6	3.8
Calhoun, Jim      	5.7	-3.1	2.7
Krzyzewski, Mike  	5.6	-6.9	-1.3
Huggins, Bob      	5.6	-3.3	2.3
Few, Mark         	5.2	-5.2	0.0
Howland, Ben      	5.1	-3.1	2.0
Boeheim, Jim      	5.0	-4.9	0.1
Beilein, John     	4.6	-2.5	2.1
Marshall, Gregg   	4.5	-3.1	1.4
Wright, Jay       	4.5	-4.7	-0.3
Anderson, Mike    	4.1	-3.3	0.8
Barnes, Rick      	3.9	-5.0	-1.1
Ollie, Kevin      	3.7		3.7
Pearl, Bruce      	3.7	-3.1	0.7
Dixon, Jamie      	3.5	-5.4	-1.9
Drew, Scott       	3.5	-2.2	1.2
Smart, Shaka      	3.4	-3.3	0.1
Painter, Matt     	3.3	-2.9	0.4
Thompson, John III	3.1	-4.4	-1.3
Williams, Buzz    	3.1	-2.8	0.3
Larranaga, Jim    	2.9	-1.8	1.1

Don't worry about the mules, just load the wagon!!

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Senex68
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8 years 8 months ago #5288 by Senex68

I understand your methodology, but perhaps you might consider another variable. Each year teams are ranked pre-season, which does reflect the realistic expectations of the media and coaches about each of the teams. And each year some of those expectations are met, some are exceeded, and some are way too optimistic. Michigan State is usually well thought of in the pre-season period, and generally they lose several games early in the year which ultimately is reflected in a slightly lower seeding than their pre-season rating would have predicted. Ergo, they are under-seeded more often than they really should be. When they perform 'above their seed,' Izzo is rewarded with plaudits for being a great tournament coach, when in fact, his team is simply reflecting its actual talent and skill. Calipari brings in freshmen, who improve (most years) significantly, leading to better performance in the NCAAs than their regular season record would predict. And, of course, we've been destroyed by key injuries in at least two tournaments, leading to earlier than expected exits. Just a couple of thoughts.

"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”

Glenn Reynolds

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HawkErrant
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b82, g84 Lift the chorus...

8 years 8 months ago #5294 by HawkErrant

Senex68 wrote: I understand your methodology, but perhaps you might consider another variable. Each year teams are ranked pre-season, which does reflect the realistic expectations of the media and coaches about each of the teams. And each year some of those expectations are met, some are exceeded, and some are way too optimistic. Michigan State is usually well thought of in the pre-season period, and generally they lose several games early in the year which ultimately is reflected in a slightly lower seeding than their pre-season rating would have predicted. Ergo, they are under-seeded more often than they really should be. When they perform 'above their seed,' Izzo is rewarded with plaudits for being a great tournament coach, when in fact, his team is simply reflecting its actual talent and skill. Calipari brings in freshmen, who improve (most years) significantly, leading to better performance in the NCAAs than their regular season record would predict. And, of course, we've been destroyed by key injuries in at least two tournaments, leading to earlier than expected exits. Just a couple of thoughts.

I'm thinking you're thinking:

1997 - Jerod Haase's wrist, Scot Pollard's fractured foot. Both played, but at a fraction of their normal ability
2014 - Joel Embiid's foot

Also have to wonder how 2003 might have been different if Wayne Simien, a solid free throw shooter, was playing instead of my all-time favorite junk man Jeff Graves, who played IMO his best ball ever in that tournament, except for his FT shooting that game. I'm not dumping the blame on Jeff, he only missed 5 of the 18 misses our guys had in that game, but he would not have been in the game late if Wayne had been healthy, and that might have made all the difference in that 3 point loss.

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"

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Senex68
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8 years 8 months ago #5297 by Senex68

Under Self, we've had Embiid's injury and last year Perry Ellis hurt his knee. With a healthy Embiid, I believe we would have won it all. And with a healthy Perry last year, we would have gone a bit further, maybe to the Final 4.

"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”

Glenn Reynolds

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HawkErrant
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b82, g84 Lift the chorus...

8 years 8 months ago #5299 by HawkErrant

Ah, Perry's knee late last year -- I had forgotten about that, probably because he did come back to play, although not nearly as well as he had been.

Without that injury salient in my memory, I thought you were going back beyond Self for illustration purposes -- especially since 1997 is still *the* most salient injury year to me. I will always believe that a healthy Jerod and Scot would have meant the NC for arguably the best team in KU history that year.

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JRhawk
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8 years 8 months ago #5309 by JRhawk

Yes, Perry was hurt vs WVU on 3-3-15. Missed 2nd half of that game and next two. Played 26 min vs Baylor on 3-13, 30 vs ISU on 3-14, 23 min vs NMSt on 3-20-15, and 34 min & 17 points (season average 13.5) vs WSU.
Granted, Embiid being totally out impacted KU - how much is anyone's guess.
I'm like Tony Romo in wondering why HCBS played starters until 3 minutes of UT game. With a 24 point halftime lead and about 30 points the entire 2nd half, made zero sense. A great time to rest the starters and possibly avoid injuries!!!

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HawkErrant
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b82, g84 Lift the chorus...

8 years 8 months ago #5314 by HawkErrant

HCBS is human. After
(1) what happened with VCU and
(2) Smart's sassy response upon being hired by tu to a question about how well his style will translate to the Big 12,
it felt too good stomping tu and Smart into the ground, and not giving them *any* chance of coming back, on their Senior Night

Only thing that makes sense to me - human frailty.

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CorpusJayhawk
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8 years 8 months ago #5319 by CorpusJayhawk

As with any type of analysis, there are strengths and weaknesses and any conclusion must be made in light of the methodology and the asusmptions and the vilidity of the raw data. In this case, all losses are not equally valid. But aside from diving deep into the pool of subjectivity, the methodology assumes that all lossess are equally valid. So clearly, not all losses are equally the coaches fault. So yes, all of the thoughts raised above are legitimate. That is why it is important to have the largest possible dataset. So a year that Self has an injured Embiid may be offset by a year the opponent has an injured player. This analysis is intended to give some reasonable insight rather than a lock down conclusion. And it is ONLY intended to give insight into how a coach plays to seed and not how he coaches overall. The higher the seed the less room there is for upside so this is almost always going to have the highest seeded coaches fairing somewhat poorly. But it is an interesting look.

Don't worry about the mules, just load the wagon!!

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Senex68
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8 years 8 months ago #5325 by Senex68

I think that it's more complex than "playing to seed." If seeding somehow became totally objective, in effect, a result of some magical algorithm, then we could analyze it objectively. But the individual styles of various coaches makes a huge difference in how teams are seeded, and therefore dramatically impacts how they 'coach to seed.' If KU did not play every season to win the Big 12, but instead had a strategy to optimize their chances of winning the title, I think we'd see a Self history of playing better than 'to seed.' It's clear that Izzo doesn't care about Big 10 titles, and his teams reflect that approach by playing exceptionally well in the NCAAs.

And as much as you might try to assume that injuries even out, they don't. To the KU team that lost to Stanford, Embiid was the absolute difference. With him in the game we win, and move on, and we probably win it all. There was not a single team we played, or would have played, that lost a player of Embiid's talent and skill. We forget about the fact that Archie Marshall blew out his knee at a most critical time in the Duke game in '86. He makes the layup, stays on the floor, and we very well beat Duke and win it all. THAT team, by the way, was one of our best of all time, IMHO.

"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”

Glenn Reynolds

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HawkErrant
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b82, g84 Lift the chorus...

8 years 8 months ago #5326 by HawkErrant

Senex68 wrote: ...We forget about the fact that Archie Marshall blew out his knee at a most critical time in the Duke game in '86. He makes the layup, stays on the floor, and we very well beat Duke and win it all. THAT team, by the way, was one of our best of all time, IMHO.

Those of us who watched that game can never forget Archie's injury or that 1986 team, and that they had already beaten eventual champion Louisville and freshman phenom Pervis Ellison earlier that season.

I wrote earlier than the 1997 squad was arguably the greatest team in KU history. The other teams in that argument, IMO, would be the 1986 and 2008 squads, with Ron and Pony and Greg and Danny and Ced and Archie and Mark being my personal favorites. I am not qualified to speak to any teams fielded by KU before Larry Brown, so I'll let the real old timers address that if they have any candidates.

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konza63
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c'85 Towering toward the Blue

8 years 8 months ago - 8 years 8 months ago #5327 by konza63

We forget about the fact that Archie Marshall blew out his knee at a most critical time in the Duke game in '86. He makes the layup, stays on the floor, and we very well beat Duke and win it all. THAT team, by the way, was one of our best of all time, IMHO.

[/i]

Speak for yourself.

I've never forgotten that tragic event, nor that game, nor that team. IMO, there's no "very well beat" about it. That team was on a mission to cut down the nets. Best KU team I've ever seen--and if you catapulted them to the 3-point line era, they would've been even more formidable than they were. Ronnie and Calvin were just insanely pure long-range assassins. And the prettiest ally-oops I've ever seen involved Calvin on the receiving end. Man, could he sky--and the passes from Cedric (and Turgeon) were always perfect. Oh, yes, we had a young up-and-comer named "Manning" on that team as well.

KU has had way too many close calls and bad bounces, injuries, and breaks in the Dance that went against us--and made the difference in a very small number of crowns (3 is ludicrous) when, if we'd had the luck of UK or Puke, we'd have about 7, 8, or 9 by now.

Dem's the breaks, I guess... But if there are any karmatic forces or cosmic realignments to be had with the basketball gods, KU deserves to go on a nice little run with several NCs in the coming decade-plus. Let it be thus...

“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”

1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.

Last Edit: 8 years 8 months ago by konza63.

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konza63
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c'85 Towering toward the Blue

8 years 8 months ago #5330 by konza63

Note the words of Larry Brown, who has certainly seen his fair share of teams at all levels.

I still just shake my head about that team and its fate...

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Illhawk
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8 years 8 months ago #5345 by Illhawk

My favorite KU team. Partially because it was my last year at KU and partially because it was a balanced veteran team. On any day Calvin, Ron, Greg or Danny could put up a big number. And Cedric with guidance from HCLB got the ball to whoever had the matchup.

This was pre-3pt line. Thompson had two primary shots, top of the key ( now a 3) and dunking. Kellogg liked the corner shot which would also be a 3 today. Archie was the best sixth in in the Country that season. I do think we should have won that year , but wonder if we could have followed up in 1988 ( would Danny have stayed...?)

I is amazing how fast 30 years can go.

b/t/w I will be in Allen tomorrow.

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NotOstertag
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8 years 8 months ago #5348 by NotOstertag

Add in Clif Alexander. Prior to his issues, he was playing decent minutes off the bench, contributing and getting better as he figured things out. He was certainly further along than Bragg or Diallo are now in terms of playing in Self's system.

So not only did Perry get hurt, but one of the guys who could step in for a few minutes to back him up wasn't able to play. Worse, the fact that he was in "limbo" down the stretch likely messed with the team strategy overall.

Regardless, we haven't been this well positioned without any major holes in our game, no injuries, and no controversy for quite a while.

"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot

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konza63
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c'85 Towering toward the Blue

8 years 8 months ago #5352 by konza63

we haven't been this well positioned without any major holes in our game, no injuries, and no controversy for quite a while.

So true. And between that, the way the team has come together, the way it finished off the very good Big 12 competition, and the lack of a "dominant" team in everyone's way for the Dance, it's hard not to be super excited for what lies ahead.

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hairyhawk
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8 years 8 months ago #5360 by hairyhawk

I hope everything goes well tomorrow for you and the team! Enjoy the game!

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