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Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Group "wiki" approach to listing the bad calls last night
- konza63
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- c'85 Towering toward the Blue
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8 years 9 months ago #3974
by konza63
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Multiple folks on here (myself included) have mentioned the horrid officiating last night as yet another tough challenge KU had to overcome on the road. But I think it would be interesting to put some meat on those bones, and to do so collectively, so that we can actually see the landscape in full view--and from the perspective of many sets of eyes, not just one.
With that in mind, I propose we use this thread to each nominate up to three bad calls that you saw last night. They don't have to be the most egregious ones, just ones you recall. And if you see one nominated from another person, skip that one and put forth a different one. If not enough people are on the board today and it's been a couple hours, feel free to post again with three more that you recalled.
I'll start first:
* Frank getting whistled for a phantom foul in which Woodard went airborne and, entirely on his own doing, came down on his back--completely untouched by Mason at any point in the play
* A huge late non-call in which Lucas retrieved a long rebound or loose ball near the sideline by the OU bench and was summarily tomahawk-chopped on the right arm by Buddy Hield. The hard contact visibly propelled Lucas's arm downward, he lost the ball to an OU player, and the ref--who was standing within TEN FEET of the play on the sideline, with a clear view--swallowed the whistle.
* Jamari getting whistled for a phantom foul while hustling on the floor after a loose ball--and about losing it in shock (like the Jayhawks nearby him) when he was whistled for the call. Punishing a great play.
Over to the crowd...
With that in mind, I propose we use this thread to each nominate up to three bad calls that you saw last night. They don't have to be the most egregious ones, just ones you recall. And if you see one nominated from another person, skip that one and put forth a different one. If not enough people are on the board today and it's been a couple hours, feel free to post again with three more that you recalled.
I'll start first:
* Frank getting whistled for a phantom foul in which Woodard went airborne and, entirely on his own doing, came down on his back--completely untouched by Mason at any point in the play
* A huge late non-call in which Lucas retrieved a long rebound or loose ball near the sideline by the OU bench and was summarily tomahawk-chopped on the right arm by Buddy Hield. The hard contact visibly propelled Lucas's arm downward, he lost the ball to an OU player, and the ref--who was standing within TEN FEET of the play on the sideline, with a clear view--swallowed the whistle.
* Jamari getting whistled for a phantom foul while hustling on the floor after a loose ball--and about losing it in shock (like the Jayhawks nearby him) when he was whistled for the call. Punishing a great play.
Over to the crowd...
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
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- Wheatstate Gal
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8 years 9 months ago #3975
by Wheatstate Gal
Don't recall the players but....the OU "turnover" when they kept the ball.
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- porthawk
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8 years 9 months ago #3976
by porthawk
The bad out of bounds call. They called it off Selden, but it pretty clearly went off Cousins's hand.
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- Senex68
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8 years 9 months ago #3979
by Senex68
"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”
Glenn Reynolds
I am not going to go through the game again, but I do want to ask a question which is one we've all asked over the years, and to which we have yet to get an adequate answer. Why are the refs so bad? And part of the question, are they just inept, or they just dishonest? Or part 3, are they both? And part 4, if WE can see their ineptitude/dishonesty, we know that others see it too. Why can't the people who run the game see it? And if they CAN see it, why won't they do anything about it? I just don't understand.
"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”
Glenn Reynolds
The following user(s) said Thank You: texkan
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- Bayhawk
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8 years 9 months ago #3981
by Bayhawk
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
I won't play "wiki refs" only because I doubt I have much to add. I will say however, that in interest of the scientific method, I would ask for a sample of other schools and -- more importantly -- home & visitors. I too feel we get some "crap" calls [My word, you pick your own]. And without trying to justify anything, are the refs universally bad, or is it just a few? Are they bad every game or just some games? Are the equally bad for each (and all) teams, or just a few.
I've always thought Puke was given the "second coming" treatment when they play (see another post with an imbedded video of a Puke player waltzing to the hoop before the game winning shot against 'Nova). I'll leave you with this {Editor's note, I'm not trying to start something political here]:
Many years ago folks in Philadelphia complained to Municipal government that the busses that ran in the (back in the day it was called Negro, but I'll update the story to at least the present millennium) African American section of town were substandard with broken windows, no air-conditioning, torn seats, and the like. Ostensibly a valid complaint given the treatment of minorities in the '70's. It turned out however, that it was only partially true. The buses were rotated each week throughout the various routes. Some weeks you got the "crap" bus, and some days you got the new bus.
Yes, some days we get crappy refs, and some days you don't. But when do you notice it?
OK, that's my two cents,
RCJHGKU!
I've always thought Puke was given the "second coming" treatment when they play (see another post with an imbedded video of a Puke player waltzing to the hoop before the game winning shot against 'Nova). I'll leave you with this {Editor's note, I'm not trying to start something political here]:
Many years ago folks in Philadelphia complained to Municipal government that the busses that ran in the (back in the day it was called Negro, but I'll update the story to at least the present millennium) African American section of town were substandard with broken windows, no air-conditioning, torn seats, and the like. Ostensibly a valid complaint given the treatment of minorities in the '70's. It turned out however, that it was only partially true. The buses were rotated each week throughout the various routes. Some weeks you got the "crap" bus, and some days you got the new bus.
Yes, some days we get crappy refs, and some days you don't. But when do you notice it?
OK, that's my two cents,
RCJHGKU!
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
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- porthawk
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8 years 9 months ago - 8 years 9 months ago #3982
by porthawk
First, let me say that I agree with your take, Senex.
Two things that might play a role in it:
1. With bigger, stronger, and faster athlete nowadays, combined with "older" refs (50+?), it may be harder for them to track play.
2. The "fatigue" factor for the refs. Since they're independent contractors, they can work as many days/games as they want w/o restrictions. Konza had posted and article about ref John Higgins that mentioned this. I guess this reason can be related to #1 in that it magnifies the possible already-there deficiencies.
Again, this is by no means a way to explain the situation completely, just something to continue the discussion.
Two things that might play a role in it:
1. With bigger, stronger, and faster athlete nowadays, combined with "older" refs (50+?), it may be harder for them to track play.
2. The "fatigue" factor for the refs. Since they're independent contractors, they can work as many days/games as they want w/o restrictions. Konza had posted and article about ref John Higgins that mentioned this. I guess this reason can be related to #1 in that it magnifies the possible already-there deficiencies.
Again, this is by no means a way to explain the situation completely, just something to continue the discussion.
Last Edit: 8 years 9 months ago by porthawk.
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- konza63
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8 years 9 months ago - 8 years 9 months ago #3985
by konza63
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
I don't know the answers, either, as to why it's so bad--and noticeably so--this year. But last night was so egregious because it was a massively critical game for KU and it just seemed like the refs kept giving OU chance after chance after chance to crawl back in it. Definitely in that first half, but throughout the game.
Here is the head of Big 12 officiating, and in this video he's discussing the plethora of new rules/rules changes and how the game would hereafter be called:
www.big12sports.com/mediaPortal/player.d...0208&db_oem_id=10410
I don't have time to go through the whole video, sadly, but I'm going to throw out another theory, and that's that the refs have so many rules and rules re-interpretations that it could be a case of "NCAA officiating activism" run amok--basically over-officiating and a case where refs are given WAY too much subjective license, and the result is a ton of inconsistency in application.
What's baffling and infuriating is when it punishes legitimately good plays, especially on defense. Frank got whistled at least twice last night for literally doing nothing but being near an OU player. Same thing, clearly, with Devonte on that huge phantom call that sent Hield to the line, and which drove Bilas nuts. (Thankfully Hield missed the 2nd free throw or they might still be playing today) Same thing with our bigs on OU penetration in a couple instances--they literally did nothing but stand there with arms raised high (vertical stance, as coaches teach them to do--no block attempt, no hacking at the ball, no chest or pelvis bump) yet were called for fouls.
Then there's the really nonsensical stuff like stopping live game play--in this case, a KU transition play up the court, after our guard had gotten all the way to the half court line!!!--to tell Cousins and Frank to stop jawing...even though the replay showed they weren't even jawing! Stopped a live play that was well into its flow for that?!? Come on!!!
I could go on and on and on and on. Last night it could've spelled the difference between a KU win or loss, and therefore KU's continuation (or not) of a truly other-worldly sports streak. But in a few scant weeks, it could spell the difference between a team making a legit run in the all-or-nothing tourney or going home completely bewildered, infuriated, and flabbergasted.
I'm truly fed up with the refs, and it's threatening to ruin my viewing experiences (and enjoyment of the game I love) as a fan!
Here is the head of Big 12 officiating, and in this video he's discussing the plethora of new rules/rules changes and how the game would hereafter be called:
www.big12sports.com/mediaPortal/player.d...0208&db_oem_id=10410
I don't have time to go through the whole video, sadly, but I'm going to throw out another theory, and that's that the refs have so many rules and rules re-interpretations that it could be a case of "NCAA officiating activism" run amok--basically over-officiating and a case where refs are given WAY too much subjective license, and the result is a ton of inconsistency in application.
What's baffling and infuriating is when it punishes legitimately good plays, especially on defense. Frank got whistled at least twice last night for literally doing nothing but being near an OU player. Same thing, clearly, with Devonte on that huge phantom call that sent Hield to the line, and which drove Bilas nuts. (Thankfully Hield missed the 2nd free throw or they might still be playing today) Same thing with our bigs on OU penetration in a couple instances--they literally did nothing but stand there with arms raised high (vertical stance, as coaches teach them to do--no block attempt, no hacking at the ball, no chest or pelvis bump) yet were called for fouls.
Then there's the really nonsensical stuff like stopping live game play--in this case, a KU transition play up the court, after our guard had gotten all the way to the half court line!!!--to tell Cousins and Frank to stop jawing...even though the replay showed they weren't even jawing! Stopped a live play that was well into its flow for that?!? Come on!!!
I could go on and on and on and on. Last night it could've spelled the difference between a KU win or loss, and therefore KU's continuation (or not) of a truly other-worldly sports streak. But in a few scant weeks, it could spell the difference between a team making a legit run in the all-or-nothing tourney or going home completely bewildered, infuriated, and flabbergasted.
I'm truly fed up with the refs, and it's threatening to ruin my viewing experiences (and enjoyment of the game I love) as a fan!
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Last Edit: 8 years 9 months ago by konza63.
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- JoJoHawk
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8 years 9 months ago #3990
by JoJoHawk
First, I really feel bad calls are a rampant and do go both ways. Always expect to get a few more than the home team when on the road.
Second, the modern player is well trained and sometimes well coached in the art of "ref baiting"- the science of the easily observable and oft exaggerated reactions to situations to make the ref assume there had to be a foul. Even we do it some- part of the game. It is more subtle than the standard "flop" and must be used somewhat selectively. To be too ostentatious and common tends to make it less useful and possibly detrimental as in the case of Marcus Smart.
I think Frank fell victim a couple of time yesterday and I am astounded that D'Te only got one PF call!!
Second, the modern player is well trained and sometimes well coached in the art of "ref baiting"- the science of the easily observable and oft exaggerated reactions to situations to make the ref assume there had to be a foul. Even we do it some- part of the game. It is more subtle than the standard "flop" and must be used somewhat selectively. To be too ostentatious and common tends to make it less useful and possibly detrimental as in the case of Marcus Smart.
I think Frank fell victim a couple of time yesterday and I am astounded that D'Te only got one PF call!!
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